Screenwriting is Free
Posted by Craig Mazin on 25 Oct 2010 at 12:41 am | Tagged as: The Craft & Trade
Don't buy this crap...
I just got back today from the Austin Film Festival. I had a terrific time, spoke on a bunch of panels, met lots of people and had an all-around kickass time.
But.
I want to talk to you. You go to screenwriting conferences because you want to be a professional. You want to sell a script. You’re a student. You want to learn.
Good for you. Listening to and questioning the people who do the job you want is a smart move.
What is NOT a smart move is listening to the people who DON’T do the job. And who are they? Oh, you know who they are. They’re selling books. They’re selling seminars. They’re “script consultants.” And for a small fee, or a medium fee, or a goddamned flat-out ridiculous fee, they’ll coach you right into the big leagues!
Horseshit. Let me say it loudly and clearly: IF THEY WERE ANY GOOD, THEY WOULD BE DOING WHAT I DO, NOT DOING WHAT THEY DO.
Dig? Simple rule of thumb: don’t spend a dime on a book, a lesson, a seminar or advice if the person selling DOESN’T HAVE A REAL MOVIE CREDIT.
And just in case “real movie credit” is too vague, I’ll be clear about what I mean. One spec sale from 1994 that happened to get made ain’t enough. Don’t spend a dime unless the seller has worked, is working and is gonna BE working. Multiple credits. A hit or two would be nice. Or recent critical acclaim, like a script on the Black List. A recent spec sale, or a spate of new gigs. Awards and nominations never hurt…
Mind you, I’m not just going after the rinky-dink “who the hell are YOU?” types who print up “script consultant” business cards for $20 and then hand them out to suckers, as if they earned a degree or something.
I’m talking about the biggies too.
My friend Derek Haas was at a conference where Linda Seger was speaking. He wasn’t impressed. He wasn’t impressed with the quality of her advice, the relevance of her advice…or her references to Cagney & Lacey, as if anyone in 2010 would give a shit.
Linda Seger has an IMDB page. Check it out. When you’re done laughing at the posters of the movies she’s consulted on, head on back.
According to her website, she charges $1200 for a “script overview.” But if that’s not enough magic for you, she’ll take $5,000 to provide “script consultation from early draft into production.” Oh boy.
If you pay this lady or anyone like her a penny, I personally believe you’re a moron. Linda? Frickin’ genius, I guess. But you? Moron.
In a world full of advertising on urinals, or fees for checking a bag on a plane, there is still one thing left in this world that is free.
Screenwriting. Assuming someone is willing to lend you a pen and some paper, you’ve got all the materials you need between your ears.
Are some books useful? Marginally so, in my opinion. You’re far better off reading screenplays (lots of places on the internet to do that) and watching movies.
But if you really feel the need for more help than that, then ask yourself these questions before pulling out your wallet: “Is my guru any closer to being a professional screenwriter than I am? Has the author of this book written a movie anyone I know has enjoyed in theater? Is there even one example of someone in my position graduating this program and becoming a successful screenwriter?”
And then ask yourself the biggest question. “Why do I need this at all?”
Screenwriting is hard. The business is hard. As you flail around, doing everything you can to achieve your dream, you’re going to get frustrated and scared. When we get frustrated and scared, we attempt to exert control over the process. One way of fooling ourselves into thinking we have control over something is to give money to experts, who will help us get better.
That’s why Linda’s titles are so seductive. “Making a Good Script Great.” “Making a Good Writer Great.” See? You’re good, friend. You’re real good. You just need something else to be “great.” By spending money on a book…or more…you’ll exert control over the scary thing and win the day!
Or you won’t. Maybe you’ll just be someone else applying post-facto structural theories to your own work. It’s an amateur move, which is ironic, considering that avoiding amateurism is the reason you bought the book in the first place.
To be fair, I’m not suggesting the Segers and Trubys and McKees and Voglers of the world don’t have anything interesting or insightful to say. I’m just saying that you have to put all that stuff in perspective. In my heart, I truly believe that no successful writer who has read their books would have failed had they not.
Good writers are good writers, and bad writers are easy marks for control-peddlers.
If you want to spend a little dough on general advice, go to the Nashville Screenwriters Conference. Go to the Austin Film Festival. Listen to professionals.
If you want to spend a little dough on learning structure, go out and buy every Pixar movie ever made, including the shorts.
If you want to spend a little more, start going through the Criterion collection. Study the films. Study the scripts online. And then remember that the best possible instructor you could ever have is staring at you in the mirror.
$0 per session. Not a bad price. Start writing.
Craig, thank you, THANK YOU for posting this.
When you’re a no-name and try to give this advice, you’re often met with complete disbelief and even outright hostility. Being able to simply point to this post will be a life-saver.
Thank you!
Great stuff, and loved the looks of concern on some faces when you kept pounding at this point on several occasions in panels in Austin.
Loved (loved loved) seeing you guys in Austin and hope you find any excuse to come back and play with us schlubs again next year.
And I’ll never be able to think of Ted Levine in quite the same way.
B
Boy, do I want to mention one lady by name! But I won’t…
One script that became an alicia silverstone vehicle in the 90s (nearly 20 years ago), and if you ask her what else she’s working on, you piss her off…
Gee, Android 3008, if that’s your REAL NAME, whoever’s patina could you be tarnishing?
I mostly agree, but I think there are some huge flaws in your argument. In almost all fields the teachers and coaches are expected to have an understanding of the material and an ability and willingness to teach. I don’t assume my biology teacher from high-school is publishing important research, or that my fencing coach was on the Olympic team. If someone is giving bad advice and being disingenuous that doesn’t mean it’s because they lack an important credit. I know people with good advice on writing who have never sold a script, and I know people with bad advice on writing who have recent credits on real films.
Right now there is a head coach in the NFL who never played football professionally or in college. Does that mean he can’t coach football players on how to play the game?
In practice I think most of these consultants and gurus are hacks, but that doesn’t mean ALL teachers without produced credits are hacks.
Great post, Craig. I’ve always found consultants with lo/no/outdated credits to be among the lowest of predators, whether they’re charging for their services or just accepting speaking engagements to gratify their egos and assure them they’re somehow important. It’s always the small fish (or worse, imitation crabs) that seem to have the unique, silver-bullet shortcuts, systems and templates to follow, too.
Yeah, I wrote a book, but about something I have ten years and 20 plus credits in — and even then, I took it on mostly out of anger over how completely crappy and smugly written I found some of the top books on the genre I work in to be.
I loved hearing the words “Fuck McKees” come from a panelist at AFF. “How To” books have their place in the world of learning to write screenplays, but produced screenplays and movies have a bigger place.
keith:
Teachers, the ones not doing research and actually doing the gig that they teach, have to follow curricula that others set for them. Your biology teacher didn’t teach you his theories of biology. He taught biologists’ theories of biology, using approved textbooks and materials.
The head coach you cite is the exception that proves the rule.
I never said every teacher was a hack, btw. What I said was that you don’t need to pay anyone to succeed.
Craig – this post was great, and a real help to those of us experimenting with screenplays, style, the industry, the craft, you name it.
I find that so much wealth is online through sites like yours, script availability, and so many great others by people currently working in the industry that simply look to want to help people.
Keep up the great work, and best of luck on your current projects.
Echoing Craig. I was on a couple of those panels in Austin with Craig and Derek, I’ve taught screenwriting in schools while trying to figure out for myself what about it can be productively taught; and the majority of those books and classes are useless and often destructive. I once walked out of an unproductive Linda Seger class at the break and asked for a refund, only to have her challenge me with a list of films and people whose success she claimed responsibility for. Some books are interesting as an exercise in after-the-fact analysis — but don’t help you sit down yourself and write a screenplay. They give you a lot of things to think about that don’t matter.
“Teachers, the ones not doing research and actually doing the gig that they teach, have to follow curricula that others set for them. Your biology teacher didn’t teach you his theories of biology. He taught biologists’ theories of biology, using approved textbooks and materials.”
That’s definitely true when it comes to biology, but it’s less true in the arts. When you take an art class, you are learning your teacher’s theories on how to draw, paint, sculpt, etc. There is obviously no assumption that high-school or even university art teachers have had huge success in the professional world of fine art. The quality of their teaching is judged based on their ability as a teacher and their advice, not on their “real world” success.
Do you think high-school students shouldn’t take art classes unless they are taught by successful artists? Should they not take music lessons unless the teacher plays in the local philharmonic? Obviously as you ascend the ladder of expertise you require more and more of your teachers, and at the top you hope that your teacher has an intimate knowledge of what it takes to succeed within the field from personal experience. But that doesn’t invalidate the value of every teacher that helped get the student to that stage.
“The head coach you cite is the exception that proves the rule.”
So let me elaborate on the NFL example further…
Of the 32 head coaches in the NFL, only 7 played in the NFL. So who are the exceptions: the coaches with real world professional playing experience or the coaches without real world professional playing experience?
“I never said every teacher was a hack, btw. What I said was that you don’t need to pay anyone to succeed.”
This is what you said in capitalized letters: “Simple rule of thumb: don’t spend a dime on a book, a lesson, a seminar or advice if the person selling DOESN’T HAVE A REAL MOVIE CREDIT.”
So, no, you aren’t saying every teacher is a hack. But you are saying that no one should spend money on advice/books/classes from a screenwriting teacher unless that screenwriting teacher has a “real movie credit.” I think the brush that you’re painting with is so broad that it’s going to paint over a lot of good screenwriting teachers who don’t have a “real movie credit.”
Personally, I agree with your central point about the cost of becoming a good screenwriter. You don’t have to spend any money on teachers to figure out how to be a good screenwriter. But I think that point applies to both gurus with produced credits and gurus without produced credits. On the other hand, if someone is choosing to spend money on their screenwriting education, I don’t think it’s a fair rule of thumb to reject all teachers who don’t have a “real movie credit” or to imply that teachers who do have a “real movie credit” are inherently better than those without.
When I was younger (late teens and early twenties) I took screenwriting classes at three different institutions, I read a lot of books on the subject, and I perused a lot of websites. I then went to a prestigious graduate film program. Over the years, I took classes with teachers that ranged from hugely successful professional screenwriters to teachers who had no real success as a professional writer. The quality of the teaching and the impact on me had very little to do with the level of professional writing success the teacher had. I learned some bad lessons from professional writers and some good lessons from unsuccessful writers, and the reverse is also true.
tl;dr – Teaching is a separate skill from writing, and level of success as a professional writer doesn’t define success as a teacher.
Well said. In addition to all the excellent points you make, I always wonder what these writers who rely so heavily on consultants would do if they actually made it – the job is knowing how to fix and write a script. If you can’t do that, what are you selling?
To clarify, I do think the vast majority of screenwriting gurus are hacks. I just don’t think they’re hacks because they don’t have “real movie credits”. I think they’re hacks because they’re giving bad advice designed to cash in on insecure aspiring writers. I think there also exists a world of legitimate screenwriting teachers who live in the academic world and aren’t trying to cash in on this self-help-seminar approach to screenwriting.
My screenwriting professor in college was awesome. He showed us movies like MATEWAN and BUTCH CASSIDY and then we read the screenplays and broke down the themes of the movies and how a great character could leap off the page. His name is Bob Darden and Michael and I always put a “Darden” in our scripts (usually the first character to die… which is our wink to him.) But what Bob Darden never did was tell us that for a few thousand dollars, he could get our script into the hands of people who mattered! Or that with a little polish, our screenplay could go from unknown to sold!
Here’s my biggest problem with hacky consultants. It is not in their best interest to tell a writer he has zero talent. Or that his idea for his script will never sell. Instead it becomes, let’s work on that second act break! For $2500, you’ll get a marked up, page by page analysis. These people will never be Simon Cowell, telling you to go try something else.
Should a high school student take an art class? Absolutely. If nothing else, it will get him or her painting canvasses instead of sitting in front of the TV. Should that high school student pay an exorbitant fee to have an unqualified “art consultant” evaluate his work with promises of getting his work into “top galleries?”
Craig’s main point stands: in this day and age, you can learn as much (or more) on the web about screenwriting than you can from a shady screenwriting consultant. Join a writer’s group and evaluate each other. Attend a festival where guys/gals in the trenches can shoot it to you straight. Read as many scripts as you can. Watch movies. Then write. And write. And write.
Derek,
I agree with everything you wrote. My issue with what Craig says is the extremity of the viewpoint, not the intent. I agree that you can learn more on the web and through self-education than from a “guru”. I also agree that most gurus are not worth paying (I’m going to stop using the “hack” term since it isn’t in the original post). I just think that your teacher Bob Darden is lumped in with Linda Segar with statements like these…
“Let me say it loudly and clearly: IF THEY WERE ANY GOOD, THEY WOULD BE DOING WHAT I DO, NOT DOING WHAT THEY DO.”
“Don’t spend a dime unless the seller has worked, is working and is gonna BE working. Multiple credits. A hit or two would be nice. Or recent critical acclaim, like a script on the Black List.”
If this post is addressed at only screenwriting gurus shilling $2,000 seminars, then I apologize for my misunderstanding. But to me it seems like this post is addressing any non-professional-screenwriter who teaches screenwriting whether they be Linda Segar or Bob Darden.
And again, I am not disagreeing with Craig’s central point. I do think that at some point the best way for an aspiring writer to learn is on their own. I just don’t necessarily think that’s true for all people at the start of their process. I think a good teacher can have a huge positive impact on the growth of that writer, just as I think a bad teacher can have a huge negative impact on the growth of that writer.
<blink, blink>
What is Ray Bradbury doing flogging this kind of thing?
Hey Craig, I’m just curious how you feel about Blake Snyder. He wrote books and did all kinds of seminars and consulting, but he was also a successful, working screenwriter. If any of these gurus are worth listening to, would he be the one?
Hollywood Assistant:
I’ve never read his book, but people I like say good things, and yes…he actually did the job. So sure, if you’re looking for help in a book, that might not be a bad choice.
While I respect you, my guess is that you’ve never read screenplays by aspiring writers who think they know how to write a screenplay simply because they’ve read a lot of scripts or watched a lot of movies and/or forked over a couple hundred bucks for Final Draft.
Unfortunately for me, in another life I read far too many scripts by aspiring writers who followed your philosophy and as such had no idea how to develop a story or a character or conflict. People who, armed with commercial sounding loglines are cluttering the reading piles all over Hollywood and beyond with beyond badly written crap. And they do this in part because successful writers like you tell them they don’t need to learn how to write a screenplay or develop a story. Most of us don’t come out of the womb knowing how to build a character arc – or more importantly knowing what it is.
Understanding the craft is vital to success. Paying a little or lot of money to get feedback, guidance and education from someone who does understand the craft is an investment in your career. I never needed the services of a script consultant, but then again, I spent a great deal of money and time earning my film degree and that investment paid off for me in a career as a screenwriter.
Screenwriting may be free, but learning how do it at a professional level, may not be. I think you are doing a great disservice by suggesting otherwise.
@ redhead
“And they do this in part because successful writers like you tell them they don’t need to learn how to write a screenplay or develop a story.”
I don’t think that’s what Craig was saying — but rather to me it seemed like he was saying there are other ways to learn that don’t involve paying people who haven’t done the job to teach you.
Craig’s site is free, John August’s is free, Wordplay (Terry Rossio and Ted Elliot) is free. Watching movies and reading scripts.
I do think there is some value to be found in books, particularly as far as screenplay structure goes as well as a glossary of terms, but after that, they’re all kind of the same.
I’m not suggesting that people don’t attempt to learn — absolutely you should learn. But I question why people would learn from people who were unable to have any form of success when there are people who are successful who are willing to teach?
redhead:
Most people who try screenwriting stink. More to the point, they will always stink. The objective isn’t to write a screenplay that doesn’t make a reader puke. It’s to write a movie.
My argument is that just about everyone I know who actually writes movies didn’t learn to do it by reading those books or going to those seminars. So why should anyone bother with them?
I appreciate that you think I’m doing these people a disservice. I think I’m saving people money. The people who stink should save their money. The few who don’t should also save their money.
Craig,
You might have overlooked one of the main reason why many people buy screenwriting books, from authors who don’t actually write screenplays.
Procrastination.
If I’m going to procrastinate writing my screenplay, I’d rather do it by reading what someone else thinks about screenwriting, if only to keep my head in the game. McKee is great for making me want to write more, because he makes me feel like I know what I’m doing a lot better than him. And even Linda Seeger does a good job breaking down stories.
I see it as a harmless pastime.
Also, some of the books about screenwriting do a decent job describing the non-creative parts of the job, the business side of things.
But yeah, I so do agree with you on your main point, who in the world pays for script analysis, or script coaching? Either the script guru is right, in which case you’ve just lost the opportunity to figure it out yourself, which is what you have to do if you’re ever going to succeed, or the script guru is wrong, and the opinion is a waste of time.
So how do you know which is which? And if you do know which is which, then why did you hire the consultant?
Terry Rossio:
Good point. Amazing what we’ll all do to avoid writing, right?
I agree that it’s all harmless until someone starts spending real money. That’s the part that depresses/offends me.
Mine was! But he was a jerk. And I simply couldn’t fence no matter how much he shouted at me.
I got introduced to this thread from Facebook and through John August’s site. I’m trying to figure out the general stream of thought here. These sites are great and obviously a wonderful store of knowledge but they’re not equivalent to a teacher and shouldn’t be mistaken as such.
I’m a working writer. I’m not a million dollar guy (I’d like to be!) but I make my living writing and I like to think I’m pretty good at it. But I teach on the side and I really enjoy it (and there have been plenty of times when I needed to). One of the things I really enjoy about teaching screenwriting is seeing the progress of my students.
Even though I am largely self-taught, I am extremely grateful for the mentors I had early on (producers) who helped me take my specific writing and push it to the next level. And frankly, I wish I had someone like me early on that could have cut my self-teaching learning curve by half.
What makes me uncomfortable in this thread is the idea that we have to be self-taught and teachers are a rip-off. I just think that’s much easier said coming from certain experiences than it is others.
The $5000 consultation is mindblowing and even offensive, yes, but I’d hate to see aspiring screenwriters get the idea that teachers and mentors are somehow to be shunned.
So depressing to read this today, especially when it comes from professional writers that you know and respect (I actually bought and enjoyed Haas’ Silver Bear). I guess I could be considered one of the hack screenwriting consultants that Mazin refers to, though nowhere near as popular or well known as a Seger or McKee. On my site I write rather profusely on story structure and analysis — for some reason or another it has become a passion of mine — and there have been those who, finding value in what I have written, have asked me to read their work. In order to justify the amount of time I would have to spend to do so, I began accepting requests for a small fee. I’m not making a killing off of it, and I’m certainly not trying to scam anyone. I enjoy the opportunity the Internet provides to make connections with other writers, and really enjoy when I’ve been able to help those struggling with their work structure their story with more purpose.
Perhaps I’m not the sort of person Mazin is referring to as it is not a full-time gig for me (I hope not, though I suspect I am). I’ve always been a bit reticent about offering services especially when I don’t have the credits to back it up and posts like this only confuse the issue more for me. Like most who frequent sites like this I’m a huge wannabe writer and no writer wants to be considered a hack. In closing, I guess I would say that not everyone who writes about this stuff is out to cheat helpless writers out of their hard-earned money.
Hm. It’s surprising to me to hear what professional writers have to say about this issue. I haven’t yet broken into the industry, so I hope those on this board don’t mind me weighing in…
It seems to me that a lot of professional writers, some of whom I’ve had the privilege of meeting (Hi Terry – you might not remember me, I was at the going-away party for a friend moving to New Zealand) believe that writing is an innate common sense that can be learned on one’s own, and achieved by practicing in a vaccum – that you don’t need feedback, mentorship, classes, or any form of training.
I’ve watched a lot of movies (about 1,000). I took a screenwriting course several years ago. The teacher introduced a lot of the basics. Gave us a couple scripts to read. I copied all of it as close as I could in my first screenplay (had already written 500-pg book manuscript). I figured I had all I needed to get started.
An agent ended up reading the finished product, and told me it was good but had issues. With his response, he sent a page of notes that covered the most glaring faux pas, and told me he’d be willing to look at it again if I could fix it.
I diligently tried to rewrite the script per his notes, but I don’t think it was enough – there were deeper issues that even his surprisingly thorough notes didn’t cover. And I didn’t know much I didn’t know until I met my mentor. After 2 years of mentoring, I’ve written several feature scripts and a TV pilot, which garnered me attention and praise from producers, industry screenwriters, and entertainment lawyers.
I don’t think I would have figured out what I needed to do to improve my writing without help – am I wrong? Or have I misunderstood the position of this post and past threads on other websites (such as the Feedback Wars on Wordplay?)
Craig’s or Terry’s argument for that matter is not anti-mentor, I think, but anti mentoring as an industry. Or, in other words, mentors can’t provide you with the most important thing you need as a writer: A drive to write and a will to suffer through it. Let’s say you can’t do without mentoring – there is an acceptable place for it – college, where you have to show something to your parents for their hard earned efforts at providing you an education. Even if, let’s say, you’re past college-age, I hear UCLA Script program can waive some of your curricular requirements if your sample writing is good, but the point is we procrastinate because we’re afraid we’ll be told we’re no good. Well, to that I say, get used to people saying you’re not good over and over again, and at first, I assure you, they will be right. The trick is, if you keep at it, their criticism will sting a little less, and a little less every time. It will all depend on how much effort you put into it. Just like anything else in life. I know — complicated, right? So, don’t pay a mentor if you can, and take a job in the industry where you could approach and make a mentor for free. If you have a life and can’t do that, I suggest you pick up a flip cam and make the film. And that’ll be very hard, I assure you.
Tommy V:
I actually agree with everything you just said. Look, you do the job. And you teach. So I love that.
You learned from a producer, who I can only hope didn’t charge you for the privilege. That’s how most of us learn as well.
Jim:
I think we need a moratorium on the word “hack.” Someone else brought it up. I’m not suggesting that people who don’t meet my test are hacks. For all I know, every damn one of them is better than I.
All I’m saying is that no one should give them money.
And yes, I’m saying no one should give you money either. You obviously sound like the sort of dude that isn’t a jerk or scam artist, nor have you turned this into your career, so I salute that.
But I don’t believe in charging for it.
Again, for the record, I have called no one or no group a hack. Just want to be extra super duper clear.
Carly B. Young:
Do you pay your mentor? Does he charge a fee?
…Just wanted to mention, my mentor taught me without expecting anything in return. I don’t think anyone who charges should really call themselves a mentor.
Hi Craig – yeah, I realized I didn’t make that clear LOL!
Carly B. Young:
Well…there you go!
Hi Craig,
Yes, that does make the point you were talking about in regard to not paying for training, doesn’t it?
Though, I’m still curious whether you think screenwriters can be completely self taught – I’ve been anxious for an answer to that question ever since I was 15 (I’m 18 now), following the Feedback Wars on Wordplay…
Carly B. Young:
Sure. I’m self-taught. So it’s possible!
Hi Craig,
Alright, I give – but I think it would have taken a really long time for me to get this far, if I had been left on my own!
Carly B. Young:
Possibly. I mean, you’re 21. That’s like…super old!
Hi Craig,
Oh, I wish I was 21 lol – I’m 18 until January, which means 1 more year to get out of the hated ‘teen’ phase…
But yeah, I know that anyone reading that post would think ‘what’s a really long time to you…?’ People have pointed that out to me many times!
Carly B. Young:
Oh, then you have plenty of time before you hit 21 and your career is over.
Hi Craig,
LOL! Okay, now you’re just getting mean!
I think because writers have been poorly treated over the years in Hollywood, they feel the need to protect their craft. Writers are rewritten or usurped by executives and producers. Sometimes their scripts are hardly recognizable after the development process. So, I think the knee-jerk reaction against coaches and teachers is a survival mechanism.
There isn’t a profession on the planet that doesn’t turn to teachers or coaches somewhere along the line. The most experienced professionals often have to return to school to maintain some kind of professional license. Even teachers must endure continuing education. Sales people are constantly subjected to seminars by pitchmen who might make more money in tuition than they ever made in sales. Even the President of the United States has mentors and advisors.
For some reason, writers think that they are exempt or above and beyond any sort of coaching.
Actors are constantly taking classes, and even the most successful actors use coaches. Jack Nicholson and Jim Carrey use Larry Moss on the set. Moss is a failed actor who has won the respect and reverence from some of the world’s greatest actors.
I’m not saying that all teachers and coaches are worthwhile, and there might be better people to turn to in the time of advice. But I am saying that some teachers and coaches might be right for some writers. To each his own. Of course writers have to learn how to break stories and problem solve, but part of that skill can be developed under the tutelage of a good coach or teacher.
To suggest that writers should never use the services of someone who has no credits is based in some kind of insecurity. It seems like disingenuous advice to me that serves the ego of the professional writer at the expense of the up and comer.
Craig,
I could not agree more with the sentiments you express here. And I could not have come up with a more perfect antidote to the blight of the ‘script guru’ – Pixar, Criterion and listening to REAL practitioners of the craft speak. Hear hear.
I was fortunate enough to attend the 2005 Nashville Screenwriters Conference, having placed 2nd in their Screenwriting Competition the previous year. I had a great time, listening to the candid, salient, practical and passionate advice of writers like David Arata, Tom Schulman and John Lee Hancock. I would recommend attending that festival to any aspiring screenwriter, who is serious about the CRAFT.
Anonymous,
Good points. My sister is a ballet dancer, and there is never any question that a dancer needs to be taught their craft – and that doesn’t take away from their art, it enhances it. My dad is a painter, and everyone knows the great artists spent years under the tutelage of mentors – many times learning by copying.
I’ve gotten a lot of grief lately for writing a few sample adaptations (feature scripts), which I’ve done in the effort of teaching myself further, and diminishing the gap between my original works and the professionally written stories I see on the big screen. But according to some, that’s not the proper way to go about it.
One of my scripts was based on Neil Gaiman’s ‘Sandman’ – it impressed an entertainment lawyer enough to contact some people working on the ‘Sandman’ TV series.
And now I’m going back to work on my latest original project…
Anonymous:
Nope. And the fact that you came here, of all places, to suggest that pros are motivated to discourage up-and-comers?
Ridiculous.
Also, the last sentence of your first paragraph doesn’t logically follow from the rest of it.
I think there’s a differencve between a $20 book and a $5,000 consulting fee.
At the Santa Fe Conference, everyone who was teaching had credits… except one, who was a consultant. War broke out on the teacher’s panel, when we disagreed with much of the consultant’s really bad advice and she insisted that she was right and we were wrong (including Oscar nom Josh Olson and Emmy winner Kirk Ellis). It was entertaining.
http://sex-in-a-sub.blogspot.com/2010/06/act-2-conflict-santa-fe-adventure-3.html
Craig,
You can’t write a good movie unless you can tell a story.
I don’t understand why you think it’s so horrible for someone to pay to learn or get some insight into the craft? I paid 50K+ for my education. People pay other people to learn how to improve their golf swing or tennis serve, to learn how to paint or roll sushi. So why shouldn’t or wouldn’t someone who wants to make a living as a screenwriter pay to improve their writing? Especially since the odds of succeeding even if you’re an awesome writer is probably a thousand to one. Just because you’re self taught and succeeded, doesn’t meant that that’s the best course of action for anybody else.
And what’s wrong with someone who really understands story – whether they’re a produced screenwriter or not, charging to share their knowledge and insights? I’ve worked with some producers and development people who couldn’t write a good scene if they’re life depended on it, but understood story and movies and could nail each and every problem in my script, of course those were the minority, but they do exist.
Reading some of your responses to some of these comments, I’m finding myself respecting you less than I did before I made my original comment. I like your blog, but what you do on it, is in no way comparable to what consultants do. They actually read a script in its entirely, provide feedback, and in some cases craft education, they work with the writer one-on-one.
Your gripe seems to be that these consultants have the audacity to charge for their services, while you blog for free. No offense, but you sound like a frickin’ moron.
redhead:
Happily, I don’t write these things for respect, but rather to spread the truth as I see it.
But hey, you feel like spending your money? Go for it. Let us know how it works out for you.
I do think it’s a knee jerk reaction because I’m not sure that writers (like most people) are always aware of what makes them tick.
I think there is a lot of merit in being a self made man and learning a craft on your own. Like you. Your experience and credits allow you to talk about writing and the business. But because you’ve never used a consultant or teacher before means that, if we were to follow your general advice, we should ignore your post here because you have no experience with teachers or consultants (no “credits”) and can’t talk about it intelligently or from experience.
I didn’t use the word “discouraging.” I said “disingenuous” because I think you’re protecting your ego rather than offering truly sound and responsible advice.
Ego, whether intended or not, seems to come into play with a statement like this: IF THEY WERE ANY GOOD, THEY WOULD BE DOING WHAT I DO, NOT DOING WHAT THEY DO.
To be perfectly honest, I know writers who’d rather be doing what Frank Darabont, John Logan and Scott Frank do rather than you.
Redhead,
“And what’s wrong with someone who really understands story – whether they’re a produced screenwriter or not, charging to share their knowledge and insights?”
I understand your point about education – people do spend a lot of money on the premise that it will teach them what they need for a career, and it is even considered a requirement.
But I think the problem being addressed here is, a lot of consultants and gurus act like they have the secret to success – even if they themselves have not proven that yet. Not everybody is lucky enough to find a mentor already working in the industry – and basically, if you convince someone to devote time to teaching you for free, it means you’ve already had to figure stuff out yourself and that person sees your potential.
It’s not like other professions, where certain training gives you automatic credit – so the problem is, you run the risk of spending a lot of money and getting nowhere.
Anonymous:
Okay, let’s take the reference out to myself, since that seems to be throwing you.
IF THEY WERE ANY GOOD, THEY WOULD BE DOING WHAT PROFESSIONAL SCREENWRITERS YOU RESPECT DO.
There.
I’ll just jump in here and repeat what I was fortunate enough to share at the awesome panels with the badasses you already know and love.
Like anything else, whatever you pick up from the books that works for you is great. As a writer, I’m always looking for new ideas — some of those are creative ideas, some are technical. Use what you can use and throw the rest aside. If you’re just starting out, please take the time to read a ton of scripts and watch a lot of movies. See what works. Read some books if you’re so inclined. SAVE THE CAT is one of the most popular books on the subject out there precisely because it breaks things down into manageable parts and it does so in an engaging, conversational way. Say what you want about BLANK CHECK, Blake Snyder’s most notable screen credit, but it WAS a million dollar spec sale. So was NUCLEAR FAMILY, which was never made. But the guy sold a lot of specs. I knew him personally and he had an intrinsic love of story and a light that shone in his eyes when he talked about what he loved.
There are decent books out there and there are others that are garbage. You can’t possibly have the time to peruse them all and if you do, for God’s sake, use the time writing.
So to recap: Watch movies. Read scripts. Write your own. Don’t forget to fall in love.
I think Terry is right, it is a harmless pastime if you just read some of the books to keep your head in the game.
I mean, obviously Craig would not have put this post up if he didnt want to procrastinate on his next project, right?
I don’t know if its comparable but when I was making the most as a screenwriter I also thought it was inappropriate to charge to teach. I knew I didn’t pay for such things when I taught myself, and I wasn’t too impressed with the information out there to begin with. I thought they were scam artists. But over the years the demand for me as a teacher has become more time consuming than the demand for me as a writer (damn it!). I have since become perfectly comfortable charging for my hard earned knowledge. It’s a fraction of what I make when I write, and I still do it for free when I can (I really do enjoy it), but I am still offering a service. I spend a lot of time on my students and take an interest in their careers. I don’t charge a lot and I think I am massively underpaid for what I am offering.
But. When I was making a lot more money, I felt the same way Craig does. Charging for it meant you were one of the bottom feeders in the dream machine sub-economy. I did not want to be one of those people! They were frauds! It was much easier to give away my time when I could better afford to do it.
(On a side-note, teaching has made me a much, much better writer as well. I highly recommend it for those qualified to do so)
I also want to add that I do disagree somewhat on Craig’s criteria of a “real movie credit”. Just a little bit. I have had six films made (Mostly small budget and MOWs) and I can tell you that four of those are the worst scripts I wrote! Not even close. Assignments will do that to you. Seriously, of my 20 or so scripts, 4 of my top 5 worst were the ones that got made. My best scripts died in development or never even sold.
So having produced scripts can be as misleading as not having produced scripts. My first teacher was the most talented writer I have ever or will ever know. Three Pulitizer Prizes for drama. A genius. NOT a good teacher. His talent was his and his alone. He has no idea how to share it and didn’t know where it came from.
It just all depends on the individual. I do unfortunately agree that most of those “teaching” or “consulting” are unqulaified. But I know a lot of people in Hollywood that are unqualified. If you can find good teachers, they really are worth it until you start working professionally and can find a genuine mentor. It’s just finding the good ones that’s tough.
And to Anonymous: you are being way, way too harsh. Look around this site. Do you know how much time it takes to keep engaged with it? There are far, far easier ways to stroke one’s ego. You can disagree with Craig, but I don’t think it’s fair to get into psychological analysis of why he has taken the position he has.
Never tried to write a screenplay. Never written fiction. Have been published in peer-reviewed academic. . which cuts no ice with this crowd, because most of those people quite famously couldn’t write their way out of a paper bag with both hands and a script doctor.
I have hung out with quite a few “real” writers over the years, but even most of them weren’t succesful screenwriters, and it clearly is a specialized gift –some of the most respected writers of the last 100 years couldn’t do it well. That really should tell you all you need to know about the specialized knack it requires.
I dunno –could F. Scott have killed at screenwriting if he’d had the right advice? I doubt it. So far as I can tell, screenwriting is like being a top-flight closer in MLB –you’re that guy or you aren’t, and it doesn’t make you better or worse than a top-flight starting pitcher. . .it just makes you different.
Other than Heinlein’s Five Rules, the only advice I’ve ever seen on writing that rang particularly true to me was Jerry Pournelle’s (who had a longish career in other stuff before bootstrapping himself into being a writer) given freely on the internet about, oh, almost 20 years ago. He said write 100,000 words meant for publication and you might start to be pretty good at it.
I actually read Craig’s piece as less an attack on mentors as more of an ecouragement to get in there and do, and not use lack of funds for the highest end resources as an excuse.
There’s nothing wrong with getting some insight into craft from a good teacher or inspiration from a book. But one problem is that so many of these people simply aren’t any good and aren’t helpful. And it’s not always readily apparent because they have come up with rules and structures that have the superficial appearance of a system of knowledge. But if after talking to a hundred successful working writers and not a single one of them works that way, thinks that way, or uses anything resembling that system, just maybe it’s bunk.
Many ‘experts’ don’t have good or useful advice, any more than the blogger who sees a film and says it’s good or it stinks knows how to make a movie. Plenty of people want to write or be involved in the entertainment business. There’s a big audience for snake oil. How does someone starting out, who’s looking for guidance, distinguish good advice from bad? So the generalization: The people who haven’t done it, who can’t seem to do it, tend to have less useful practical advice. If you want to get information from someone who knows what it’s like and what it takes, make sure you find that person.
And, having read nearly every book out there, including How To write motion picture scenario books written before talkies… I have to agree with Terry, that it’s a great form of procrastination.
Wow. I thought you stopped posting here, Craig. I TOTALLY agree to a certain extent, BUT I have bought a book or two from Linda Seger and they had good (maybe not GREAT) info for the little things that can help. I’d highly recommend “Raising your Screenplay to Oscar level” (paraphrased). I wouldn’t pay anyone more than $200 for notes or Coverage. I’d go to an official class that has a certificate or degree.
Of course, everyone learns differently but everyone can earn the same way. It’s all about discipline and screenwriting requires more than most jobs. I took Creative Writing classes in college and followed up with some Deleuze, Bergson, Bazin, etc and also used a few talented bloggers (MMoF, UNK, Mernit – missed the heyday of WordPlayer) BEFORE I wrote my first serious script (I mean movie). Oh yeah and I slept with Trottier under my pillow.
It paid off as if there hadn’t been a strike I’d more than likely have a sale under my belt. A sit stands I finally relocated t LA and will be pitching again soon.
I got a few recommends and admittedly let them die because of the length of the strike. I’m confident though that it’ll work out but hell I make nearly more than $75K on the day job so it’s not like I’m starving.
I think a few are suggesting that self-taught writers live in a cave and have no input other than the scripts and movies they learn from.
I think that part of the learning process is developing a circle of writer friends that you can bounce stuff off of and submit to for peer review.
Another part that I don’t have an answer to is whether storytelling can really be taught at all. You can teach me to catch and throw a football, but no amount of schooling is going to get my white-ass into the NFL.
Either you’re a storyteller or you aren’t.
Totally agree, Craig. That’s why I didn’t go to grad school for screenwriting, even though I got in. Maybe that might seem foolish or self-sabotaging to some, the way I saw it was that spending $100,000 or whatever on learning to write simply wasn’t required or even effective, so I decided I’d rather save the money.
That said, I feel like Truby’s book, Anatomy of Story, (which I got for like 10 bucks) opened my eyes to things about movies that I either hadn’t noticed or dismissed, and which essentially created my own artistic black hole. So personally, I felt it was really helpful. Then again, it remains to be seen whether it actually improved my writing or not.
Also, it seems like some people are bordering on saying that you either have it or you don’t, and from what I’ve heard and experienced so far, that isn’t true–that it actually is possible for a crappy writer to get better–whether studying movies and scripts on their own is the most effective method or not.
Anyways, great meeting you at AFF!
There’s a big difference between thumbing through a $10 book for possible ideas and paying hundreds or thousands of dollars for some “guru” to tell you The Way Your Script Must Be.
Geo,
I doubt Linda Seger would agree with you that Craig wasn’t attacking her. He took several nasty swipes at her, including her IMDB credits – as if his accomplishment of writing the 13 million dollar grossing, 7% fresh rottentomatoes rated “Senseless” is any more impressive. For the record Linda has been an uncredited consultant on many film and television projects (some high profile). I was hired to do a rewrite on a project that Linda consulted on. I found her notes on the original draft to be both insightful and helpful. She certainly understood the concept of writing a movie AND telling a story. She caught holes that I missed on my first read-through, and nailed the problems with character development and conflict. I don’t know what she’s like as a speaker at a film festival, but as a consultant on a medium budget comedy script she earns her fee.
Craig,
The truth as you see it, seems to be void of facts. Perhaps if you knew more about this subject, you would see it differently. For example you seem to have a lack of information about what script consultants do or for that matter, who they are. A lot of script consultants aren’t failed writers, they are often successful, experienced film industry professionals – respected story analysts or high level development executives many of whom have worked at the studios, top agencies or major production companies. A former agent I know (was at CAA for years, then a top literary boutique) now does some teaching and script consulting as well as producing. She repped an impressive list of screenwriters and directors including several Oscar winners. Certainly she has the professional experience to be able to read a script, judge the quality and provide her insight into how to improve it. She also understands the market and knows the buyers better than most writers with “Real Movie Credits.”
And speaking of “real movie credits” the most talented screenwriter I ever met has no IMDB credits. Zilch, nada. This writer has a film degree from UCLA, has been repped by top agents at CAA and WME, had specs on multiple best unproduced screenplay lists and incidentally made millions on studio assignments, and by studios assignments I mean projects developed at Paramount, Columbia, Universal, etc. She worked non stop for some of the biggest producers in Hollywood for well over a decade (mid 80′s – 90′s), but because she has no “real movie credits” my guess is that you would think she’s a hack.
As I said in my original post, I’ve never used a script consultant – although perhaps the Linda Seger situation qualifies, even though she provided notes on a draft written by somebody else. I’ve also never been a script consultant, but I believe it can be a wise investment and shouldn’t be rejected out of hand or denigrated.
I’m sure there are consultants out there who have no business hanging a shingle. But I believe that there are a lot eminently qualified consultants who are not looking to rip writers off, but really want to help them succeed – or at the very least improve their writing and as such, their chances for success. And charging for that help should not be perceived as a rip off. And I think you are way out of line to call others morons, because they have done something that you don’t agree with. Especially since you seem to be speaking out of your ass about what someone like Linda Seger can or can’t provide to a writer. You are bad mouthing, people who you know nothing about on your blog, possibly injuring their reputations and their livelihoods.
redhead:
I suppose if I were charging people for my advice, your remark about a movie I wrote 12 years ago–or any movie I’ve written–would be relevant.
Your whole shpiel is that you have the qualifications to dispense information and insight to other writers because you have “real movie credits” so I think those credits are very relevant, whether you’re charging or not, especially since you are judging Linda’s qualifications to consult based partly on her IMDB consulting credits.
I see that you chose to ignore the rest of my comment which challenged your assumption that consultants are either failed writers or lack the knowledge to provide any insight worth paying for.
You seem very off-put that people charge for sharing their knowledge and expertise. You might want to talk to someone about that, it’s coming off as almost pathological.
redhead:
Wow.
Yeah, look, I don’t know what my whole shpiel is, but yes, I have the qualifications to dispense information and insight to other writers FOR FREE. So do you. So does the wino down on the corner below my office window.
I ignored the rest of your statement, because you’re an anonymous dude talking about anonymous people who have alleged done some anonymous stuff. That’s one of the double-edged swords of internet anonymity. You can say what you want without accountability, but citing experiences and resume stuff isn’t quite as legitimate as it would be otherwise. I put my name to what I write. You don’t.
In short, maybe what you say is true, and maybe it’s not. Maybe you’re Linda Seger. Maybe you’re the greatest guy in the world. I dunno. Don’t ask me to evaluate your personal experiences as if they’re verifiable or something.
Yes, I’m off-put that people charge for sharing their alleged knowledge and expertise, when in my opinion, most of them aren’t actually necessary or particularly expert. Does that make me batshit crazy? I guess it does to you.
Can’t say your disapproval’s gonna keep me up at night.
Hey… I didn’t mean to bum anyone out. I was on a panel in Telluride with Linda and another woman whom I can’t remember her name and the whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth. I had no idea who Linda Seger or the other woman were before I got there. The conference was put on by the library there and I thought it was for people who wanted to write novels, but it ended up being more about screenwriting. Linda and the other woman had a tired by-rote schtick that made me uncomfortable… complete with videotape references from 80s movie and analysis that sounded like applying math formulas. There were also references to “many clients who wrote studio assignments developed at Paramount, Columbia, Universal,” like Redhead says above. I always find it curious that these writers and their movies never get named. Yes, there was a Cagney and Lacey reference, but I can’t remember if that was Linda or the other woman. I’ve been working in Hollywood for 12 years now and I’ve never once heard of a legitimate studio hiring an outside “consultant” to help give notes on a movie script. I find those claims dubious. And I find charging people crazy amounts of money for script analysis, always with the promise of referrals to agents and producers, egregious. I mean, look at Linda Seger’s consulting page…
Wow. OK…lot of worked up emotions on this one.
I just got back from Austin and hearing Craig, Derek, John Turman and many others who offer their professional wisdom here speak. And when I first started out I read some of the screenwriting books out there (Save the Cat, Writer’s Journey, Story). I’m a reader, come from a fiction writing background, so it seemed natural. And sure, I got some good, though sometimes contradictory advice about structure, character arc, etc.
With that said, I feel the best, most practical advice was redundantly stated by BOTH the bloggers/speakers and the books. Blogs are free and to my knowledge none of the speakers in Austin were paid to attend and so generously share their experiences.
I took the advice a while back to keep watching movies and to get my hands on screenplays to read. There really is a sort of assimilation that happens as to the structure and character development in good films, and sometimes even the bad ones (knowing what NOT to do can be just as important). I’ve gotten a great deal more out of bringing a critical eye to the movies I watch and the screenplays I now read voraciously than out of all of the books I’ve read.
We had/have “consultants” in fiction as well. Book doctors, story consultants, manuscript analysts, workshops, retreats…and I can’t think of a single writer who transformed their novel into a successful, published title through any of them. They certainly spent a great deal of money, however. My initial reaction to their counterparts in the screenwriting world is to distrust them. Unless they can directly point to successful screenplays they helped get sold and/or made in the recent past, it’s unlikely they’re legit.
Thanks again to all the panelists in Austin. And thanks to all of you who take the time from your own writing to help those of us struggling to jumpstart our careers. IT IS APPRECIATED by many of us.
TJ Mino:
It was my pleasure to be there, and I think I can safely say my fellow screenwriters were all happy to do it. The fact is that we actually really do like helping. Screenwriting’s hard. You don’t have to be alone.
Nor should you have to be exploited.
Ask Teresa Nielsen Hayden at TOR about story consultants in the fiction world. . . if you have a few hours. She makes Craig look like a moderate on the subject.
Halloween’s almost here. . .good time for it.
My life has been blessed by several mentors. But I didn’t just “get” them. I met each and every one of these men because I was already putting myself out there and writing.
It’s taken about 5 years since I met the first one, but I’ve gotten infinitely better with their assistance.
I also bought a copy of Save the Cat and one or two other screenwriting books. In conjunction with real, meaningful and enthusiastic one-on-one relationships with writers, as well as support groups like this one here, I’ve gotten much better than I ever thought I would.
Hmmm… I have mixed feelings on this subject. Although I’ve never paid for a seminar (I’m too cheap), I have read a lot of these books (from the library — yes, I’m that cheap), including Seger’s offerings. I didn’t care much for her stuff — but I did find value in some others. I suspect the same could be said for some seminars regardless of whether the teachers meet Craig’s criteria. I find a parallel in the sports world with coaches and managers — in that the best of them are mediocre talents who failed as players. But because they tried so hard to make it as players, they became devout students of the game itself. On the other side, ex-star players often make horrible coaches.
Why?
I think it’s due to the fact that playing the game at a high level came easy for them. They don’t really know what works for players who don’t have the same natural talent as they. They may not know how they did it themselves. But getting back to screenwriting, aren’t there so many odd factors that go into becoming a “successful” writer? The point could be made that you shouldn’t necessarily listen to those that meet Craig’s standard either. Take the dreaded Diablo Cody example; would she be worthy of being paid big bucks for a consultation or seminar? Hit movie, an Oscar, a cable show, another movie — and lots more in the hopper qualifies her as a “hot” working writer. But without Reitman or Ellen Page — or some luck in capturing the zeitgeist, would she have the rest? Is Juno a great piece — or an AfterSchool Special with quirky dialogue? Is she now a screenwriting expert? Does her success mean she has the ability to teach the subject effectively to others? Maybe the person who has written 30 specs, semi’d in an upper tier contest or two; maybe had something optioned once; and believes they have a knack for distilling and communicating ideas to others — but never really made it as a working screenwriter — is now teaching or consulting to stay close to the thing they love.
Does that person automatically know less than a Diablo Cody? I’m not sure.
First off, people keep saying “what about film school!?” Well, the few meaningful film schools are incredibly hard to get into, and the students they accept are the ones who are likely to have a career. There’s no screening process with consultants – got 120 pages and a credit card? They’ll turn you into a hit writer!
Which is one of the problems with consultants- 99% of scripts they get can never be fixed. The concept is shit, and you know the saying about polishing a turd. But they can’t say “toss this, write another one,” so they give notes on how to improve the script. What they really should do is mail back the check and say “try again,” but they aren’t in the business of mailing back checks.
I’m sorry, but I think consultants are scam artists. It would be like opening a business that teaches people how to be pro pitchers, and taking everyone’s money, even if they literally have zero chance of ever making it.
And redhead – I don’t know if you’re a consultant or just someone who’s paid a lot of money to a consultant, but either way, you’re not coming off well.
Oh, and Jim? I think I’ve run into you before – and if you’re the guy who teaches that Viktor Lazlo is the protagonist of “Casablanca,” then with all due respect… No, you should not be charging for your advice, IMHO.
No one reads books at film school. There is no recommended reading. At film school what the lecturers do is encourage you to find it for yourself, because they understand that that’s the only way to find it. In screenwriting classes, you do exercises.
Like, you write a ten minute short in which the location is the main character. That’s the only guideline for the exercise. Or you write a short that has no dialogue, you know, exercises that stretch your filmic imagination and capabilities a bit.
But at no stage are you told “how to write”. Or even, how anyone else writes.
They don’t want to interfere with your own vision, and your own voice, because that’s what they want to help you develop, not help you to destroy. Film school provides an environment for you to practice expressing yourself through the medium of film.
The skill and the craft in screenwriting is in the juggling. You have to imagine you’re a member of the audience while at the same time imagine you’re the character you’re writing, while at the same time maintaining a hold on the story, and what everyone else in the story is doing.
And you just can’t learn that. You have to… practice it. You know, get a feel for it. It’s a bit of a trick that you can only learn through doing.
I don’t know why they so desperately want to believe in the books and the consultants. Maybe they don’t have any faith in themselves, or maybe they want it to be easy, or maybe they just don’t have a story to tell.
But if a large number of working writers tell you to steer clear of them and that no writers they know of have ever got anywhere with them, well, then, you should be thanking them for that. They’re doing you a big favor.
The books are simplified analysis, and the consultants are delusional. It’ll all just stand in the way of finding it for yourself.
And that’s why they’re speaking out against it. This road of books and consultants, this desire to find it outside of yourself, will in fact diminish your abilities as a writer.
My screenwriting teacher at CSUN made us read the Seger book. I looked at once and threw it out. You don’t need school to become a screenwriter. I’m just getting a degree so my mom can never get mad at me for not getting a degree. But unlike other students in my class I don’t listen to a lot of advice from my professors. Because like this example those who can’t sell scripts, teach it.
redhead #47:
LMAO. Apparently this hit a nerve.
In other news, I’ve read the occasional screenwriting book in my day in order to procrastinate (thanks Terry Rossio #22!) and medicate my insecurities. Here’s what I learned. Nothing.
The problem with those books is they peddle the myth that there is some formula. Sure there are some general rules of thumb (and some of those rules do appear in the book), but following those rules will not net you a working screenplay. That’s about stuff that has very little to do with those rules (which, if you read or write enough screenplays, you’ll discover don’t even necessarily apply, or don’t apply in the way the books imply).
Don’t have much insight into consultants except to say that giving notes is a talent (work with enough producers, you’ll learn that), and there’s no reason to assume that someone who says they’re good at it because they used to be an agent or an exec or whatever the story may be.
Look. Craig is basically saying, don’t let yourself get ripped off. Take learning where you can get it. I get that. But I also understand the flip of the coin. If you need to spend 2500 dollars to learn, spend it. Just make sure you’re learning and you’re not paying for a pipe dream (or a piece of fucking paper).
As for this bs that experience beats theory, I don’t buy it. Craig or Mr. August or any of the talented fellows I’ve come to respect as sources of insight have no more value because of their experience than a Seger or a Mckee or a Truby. Their value comes because they are discussing something that interests me and, sometimes, what they spout makes sense on its own terms and does not need to be qualified by a credit list. Some of the best screenwriting advice I’ve ever received came from my life partner. She’s an urban planner. She said, “this could be clearer.”
The only value a working screenwriter has over a Seger et al. is that they can provide insight into the life of the screenwriter. They’re still not going to help you write that screenplay. No one will help you write that screenplay. Except you. Which, I believe, was also Craig’s point.
Teachers are everywhere. Some of them are free. Some of them are not. To be a writer of any value, allow yourself to journey, allow yourself to be conned, allow yourself to learn, and come out the other side the better (and, if need be, the poorer) for it.
The guys at Pixar have been to Robert McKee’s Story seminar numerous times. They know as much about story as anyone in Hollywood and they’re pretty successful, yet they see value in it. Just saying.
Craig was on this kick before with his “Charlatan’s Web” post — 5 years ago. Back then someone pointed out the 4th step in Terry’s “23 Steps to a Feature Film Sale”…
“Over at Wordplayer.com, in his column “23 Steps To A Feature Film Sale”, Terry Rosio says:
If some of this stuff is good enough for Terry, why isn’t it good enough for Joe Blow who really, really wants to write? Why is it an either/or choice? Can’t beginners do everything Craig suggests and still buy Truby’s “Blockbuster” tape series and McKee’s jackass book and everything else under the sun? I mean, hell, screenwriting’s hard.”
The last line in the 4th step suggests that Terry feels that there’s more value in these things than to simply avoid writing. And I’m sure many paid a nice sum to take Truby’s course in person. I have no horse in this race — the content resonates with me or it doesn’t. I take value where I can find it — for the right price, of course.
For those who find Jeff’s attempt to besmirch me with an out-of-context statement humorous, I refer you to our conversation earlier this year where I defend my particular understanding of story: http://messageboard.donedealpro.com/boards/showthread.php?t=54124&page=5
I wouldn’t generalize about film schools. Some of them do tell students how to write, some have students read how-to books (especially written by the teachers) and some are taught by failures with bad ideas. Teachers whose experience was winning a contest once, who were happy to tell them the “right way” to write something and what would “never sell”. As if anyone knows.
I taught for a little while at one top school, and found plenty of unprepared students who had bad teacher experiences. I think the real value in film school is in being around tons of other students, many of whom will go on to rise through careers as you do. That network you form can be very important. Also: Hands-on experience physically making movies. Another problem with film schools — like any academic environment — is that they become personal paths to power for some, and good inspiring teaching can get chased out. I was living out of state and wanted to teach one night a week at one of a couple of local university film departments, for free, and couldn’t get the chance. The guys running the department had one time answered phones for someone in Hollywood, and didn’t want a working writer with experience encroaching on their turf.
There is good information out there. Scripts on the internet. Access to direct Q & A with people who can help. Craig’s forum here is an example. There are even good books and good coaches. The challenge is trying to figure out what can help you. It’s the same challenge you face as a writer when figuring out whose notes to listen to, and how literally.
dave –
Imagine you’ve turned in a first draft, you’re in a notes meeting, the development exec says this:
“Joe’s character axis doesn’t seem to be synchronized with the thematic set piece of the story.”
There is no difference between that and –
“The plot point at the end of act one comes too early.”
OR
“What’s the negation of the negation you’re trying for here?”
OR
“I’m not really feeling the conflict of values in the story”
– except for the fact that development execs haven’t ever read a book or taken a seminar that presents a theory of film criticism that holds that there’s a whole bunch of movies upon which one can impose a pattern identified by the terms “character axis,” “synchronized,” and “thematic set piece,” and that, therefore, all screenplays should fit that pattern.
Terry’s talking about the books people need to read in order to learn the language that development execs and producers use to talk about screenwriting. That’s not the same as, here’s the books that teach people how to write screenplays.
-Ted
Ted,
That might be true for a portion of what Terry said, but you don’t see more than the learning of proper development language in the rest?
“In addition, there’s other material I highly recommend: the videotape series “Word into Image.” The “Comics Journal” Alan Moore interview. All of my oh so very important notes on writing screenplays (these must be memorized). Truby’s story structure course, which I have on audio cassette. There’re so many more I’ll have to make a separate list. Anyway — get this stuff, read it, know it.”
I think the above is suggesting more than what you pointed out. It seems clear that he’s finding value beyond development language in these as well as the “so many more” he references. I don’t think an Alan Moore interview needs to be studied to hold your own at a development meeting. (Some may say that reading Alan Moore’s views would more inspire one to laugh in a development exec’s face and walk out.) So, I can only assume that Terry means that they have some instructive value as well — including the Truby structure course — in regards to storytelling and screenwriting.
Question for the high dudgeon crowd.
Did Craig say:
1) You can’t learn anything from the paid script consultants.
Or did he say:
2) You can’t learn anything from the paid script consultants that you can’t learn from free resources?
It seems to me that disagreement over those two is the basic reason why this thread has gotten to this length.
I’m not of your tribe, but I’ve read slush piles of fiction, I’ve read a goodly number of “not bad, but not quite” editor rejections.
My impression is screenwriting is a more brutal form of business. . .but in the publishing world, if you have any lick beyond the “oh god, crayon and double !! every sentence” crowd, you find mentors that don’t cost you a cent.
Look, talent is rare. People who hunt for talent are crawling up to the oasis on their last gasp hoping for it, even when at some rational level based on experience they don’t expect to find it this time. If you have any recognizable talent and persistence you WILL find a mentor. The mentor gene lives for that.
Your 4th grad teacher, 8th grade teacher, school librarian, whatever, led you to the crack that shaped the rest of your life because they were making a living at being rewarded for it? Hell no.
“My first teacher was the most talented writer I have ever or will ever know. Three Pulitizer Prizes for drama. A genius. NOT a good teacher. His talent was his and his alone. He has no idea how to share it and didn’t know where it came from.”
I don’t know if you were trying to withhold names to protect the innocent, but there’s exactly one person in the world who fits the criterion above. He’s always struck me as a gut-instinct sort of writer–small wonder that he couldn’t teach the magic to others.
Regarding the legendary Alan Moore interview that Terry seems to love so much, I wonder if he’s not really referring to an essay Moore wrote for THE COMICS JOURNAL some years ago where he laid down some of his storytelling theories. I haven’t seen it in years, but as I recall it was reasonably insightful as far as it went, but nothing you need to exert yourself to locate. I mostly remember that he insisted that comics stories should incorporate a coherent theme–should be ABOUT something–rather than stay at the juvenile level of see-spot-run plotting and endless fight scenes that comic books had been in for most of its existence. He was arguing for a broader range of storytelling techniques than you tended to see in the bulk of the Marvel and DC lines at that time. Nothing wrong with that, but the movies learned that lesson quite a while ago.
Jim, if you think quoting you is besmirching you, you might want to re-examine your position.
But also, looking at those books when you already know how to write is different to the effect they have on developing writers. Once you know how to write nothing much influences you, well, because you already know how to write. The die is cast. So you’re not necessarily incorporating the effect they may have on beginners.
And you can change your mind about things.
I used to think there wasn’t too much harm in contests, but really, they’re wasting years trying to place in a freaky non industry related cyber contest when what they really should be focusing on is their audience. And some of them seem to think they’re “no good” if they don’t place. Eeuw. And the prize has been harvested from the moth ridden pockets of their peers. Yukky-ducks.
These consultants and readers aren’t reading your script through the eyes of a film maker, they reading them from the perspective of person who is as rapidly thinking of a suitable generic response as possible, so as to get back to Dr. Phil.
And that’s an entirely unwholesome perspective for a developing writer to be guided by.
But with regards to film school and teachers, of course they don’t want a working writer on staff, bejeezus, they know WAY too much.
Fur cryin out loud.
But at film school we had guest lecturers. They’d come in on the first Wednesday of every month.
We’d watch one of their movies, then they’d give a lecture, and there’d be a bit of question and answer.
Maybe you should offer to do a yearly guest lecture at a few places.,
I mean, the guest lecturers were great. Always memorable.
Werner Herzog told us to “do whatever it takes, steal a camera if you have to”.
Hilarious. As if.
And Norman Jewison said “there’s only one thing you need to make a good film, and that’s a good script”. We watched Agnus of God with him.
Anyway, I don’t judge screenwriters backgrounds. There has to be diversity, or we’ll become extinct.
There is no best way, or easy way, or right way, writers have an instinct to seek out what they need, just don’t try to find it on the internet.
Cos, I mean, everyone knows the internet is full of crap.
Hi everyone,
You can quibble with the details of what’s been said by the pros here, but the spirit of what they’re saying is 100% right – you have to approach anyone (or anything) who suggests they can ‘make’ your career with a giant dose of skepticism, particularly when there’s money involved.
You will make you. Or not. There’s really no better answer. And the search for, and belief in, that easier answer will distract you from what you really should be doing – reading scripts, watching movies and writing, writing, writing (and getting your stuff out there).
Mentors are great, but — as has been said above — a true mentor is someone who’s seen your work, believes in it and wants to advise you for the long haul. For free. You don’t have to pay Obi Wan Kenobi. S/he either senses the force in you or s/he doesn’t.
Personally, I’m fine with paying for the occasional $50 coverage or notes from ‘consultants’. And books ($7.95 – $15.95 or whatever) aren’t going to kill you. But the most they’ll do is maybe remind you of something you already knew or crystallize an idea in a way that it really lands where it didn’t land for you before. Those are good and important things, but be wary of ultimate answers, formulas or secrets. There are none. Or, at least, none you can buy with money.
When I see coverage ‘services’ of $200 and up, I think “I can buy 30 DVDs for that kind of money.” And watch them over and over. What do they teach? Nothing. What do I learn? As much as I’m capable of. That’s an important distinction.
No book or consultant will take you from bad to good, or good to great. YOU will take you there. I really think it’s an important step for us insecure, wannbe pros to take just to realize that. REALLY realize that. And quit looking for easier paths to success.
p.s. I was at Austin, too, and thanks pro-writers for taking the time. I had fun, and I learned a lot. Mainly that it’s on me to make this happen for myself. Make my material as good as I can, and keep looking for ways to get it out there. I knew that, of course, but nothing lands an idea like having it hammered into you about a thousand times.
You have no idea what you’re talking about. I may be the only human being on the planet who will admit to being a bad writer with absolutely no future in the business, but I love writing. Love the high when you get out of your own head for however long you can keep it up. All due respect, if a book gets me jazzed about going back into the whammy-business, the f@#k do you care? I’m not your competition, you’re a pro. I’m on the short bus. And I went to the Austin Film Festival, and I can tell you as a moral certainty, there’s way more like me out there than you. Yeah, five grand is steep for someone to read your script and tell you it sucks, but if it gets you through the night, sometimes it’s a steal at twice the price. I’m tired of hearing about how all of us in the Fly-Overs are morons and dupes who buy into the McKee b.s. I now it already. I’m the one who’s in it, so how’s about you cut some of us a break. Reality’s enough of a bitch, I need you piling on like a moose needs a f@#kin’ hat rack.
@ Craig Mazin,
Yes, I am the greatest guy in the world. Good guess.
I agree that the internet is a double edged sword, but it’s not just the anonymous commenters, it’s also the bloggers (anonymous or not) who use their platform to bash and attack other people by name publicly, with absolutely no remorse.
That’s the reason I didn’t post a comment under my name or provide the names of my agent or writer friend. You seem proud of the way you bashed Linda, I wouldn’t say I “disapprove’ I mean I’m not your father or anything, but I do find it both sad and small.
@ Jeff Lowell
I’ve never paid a script consultant or been one, I just don’t think there’s anything wrong with using or being one. I doubt that the only people who have that opinion are script consultants or those who have already them.
I myself (or make that my parents) paid a boatload of money for a degree from one of those meaningful film schools you mentioned, where I learned how to write in part by being taught about writing and by receiving feedback on my writing from professors who knew far more than I did about the craft. I believe that some script consultants do precisely that.
Just as Craig isn’t losing any sleep because of my opinion of him, I doubt I’ll be tossing and turning tonight knowing that you think I didn’t come off well on this thread. Although I can’t help wondering how big your ego must be in order for you to feel compelled to comment on how another commenter on this blog’s comments come off.
P.S. I had to google you.
Well, they care because they know it will do your head in. Not because they’re concerned about anyone being competition.
It’s an intervention. You know, tough love.
Like when all your friends come over to your house and lock you in and surround you until you agree to go into rehab.
But what’s a useful rehab for “how to” junkies.
tricky one…
I think the only way would be to clear your head of it all together. Walk away from the writing for a few months.
Spend the 10k on a nice holiday. Maybe the beach. And swim a lot when you’re there. Wash it out of your head.
An Artful Writer shit storm straight outta 2007. Nice. The only thing that could make it better would be a Josh Olson screed.
Your site offers a lot of ideas and insight, Craig, and we all appreciate the time you take to post here. But there’s something that’s clearly going on that you’ve never talked about, and I KNOW we’d all like to hear your thoughts. Two things made me think of this. In this post, you wrote:
“And just in case “real movie credit” is too vague, I’ll be clear about what I mean. One spec sale from 1994 that happened to get made ain’t enough. Don’t spend a dime unless the seller has worked, is working and is gonna BE working. Multiple credits. A hit or two would be nice. Or recent critical acclaim, like a script on the Black List. “
I think by now everyone knows that the Black List can be easily gamed. While it’s possible to get on with nothing more than a great script, there are also plenty of people who’ve gotten on with mediocre ones by nature of having several friends or good connections who contribute to the list. I understand why you’ve included it as criteria, though, because in your last post you listed some of the people you’d be in Austin with:
“John August, Derek Haas & Michael Brandt, John Turman, Jeff Lowell and everyone’s favorite computerized special-needs screenwriter, The Robotard 8000.”
You clearly travel in a group. If one of you guys is at a thing, then at least two more are. And it obviously seems agenda driven – the Robotard is a perfect example. Spellman and Talbot’s script is alright, I guess. It’s the sort of thing a lot of real comedy writers were doing more than a decade ago. Nothing radical, nothing particularly clever, and it’s certainly not the arrival of a new comedy voice.
I’m not trying to bag on these guys, but that script would have gotten no notice at all if it had just gone out as a spec by Spellman and Talbot. The alter ego was an amusing idea, but it’s clear that what drove this script anywhere was all the hype from name writers…. all of whom just happen to be part of your group.
Honestly, I think it’s fine. The system’s a wreck, and anyone who’s figured out how to game it is alright in my book. But it would be interesting if you’d share some thoughts on this. I mean, how has being part of this group helped your career? I remember back when there was that deal over at Warners (or maybe it was Fox), and it was all these big time, big name writers, and then you. I don’t know if anything ever came from that deal, but you obviously benefitted from the association in that one. Now it’s the Robotard kids.
A lot of us are struggling out here, working on becoming the best writers we can, and most of us – at least – know that good writing is only a small part of the equation. It’s always been a sad truth that sucking up to screenwriters is a terrible way to get work, but you guys seem to have figured out a way around that. How does it work? More importantly, how can the rest of us learn to play this game? How do we get our own group? Is there one person at the center of yours who got it all going and keeps it together? It’s pretty clear August is the big gun, but does that mean he makes it all happen, or is that more your purview? Is any of this conscious and formalized, or did it just start to happen?
Any thoughts and insights would be appreciated. There are scads of websites from working writers offering the usual thoughts on the business. It seems like your thing is unique, and it would be great to hear more about it from the horse’s mouth.
Thanks!
Ray Motess:
At first, I read your post and I was kind of horrified. But then I thought about it a bit…and I could see where you’re coming from. So I’ll explain as best I can.
First, I do have a lot of screenwriter friends. I met the majority of them starting in 2004, but really mostly from 2007-ish on. Just so we’re clear about me, I had been a professional screenwriter for about 9 years prior to meeting any of those guys. I had a number of credits, I had directed a film, and I had two hit movies to my name.
So I haven’t benefitted from shit.
Am I bummed about that? Sure! 
Second, you’re confusing the Warner Brothers Co-Op with the Fox Co-Op. I’m part of the Fox Co-Op. Yes, my friendship with a number of those writers help that to coalesce. On the other hand, I didn’t know Michael Arndt until he agreed to join us. And all of us had independently made names for ourselves prior to that.
Third, I honestly have no idea how the Black List works or whether or not it can be gamed.
Fourth, our boys (and girls) definitely hang, and sure, we have a group. I have lunch with Scott Frank and John Lee Hancock and Les Bohem every week. Had dinner with Alec Berg and Ted Griffin two nights ago. I was on the phone with The Wibberleys this morning, I’ll be in the office I share with Don Rhymer this afternoon, and I’m going to smoke a cigar with Derek at some point this week.
And no one in Hollywood gives two flying craps
.I am judged by the pages I write, not the company I keep (no doubt to my detriment). The same goes for The Robotard. Let me tell you what I did for The Robotard, because I really hate to think their accomplishment is being diminished.
I read their script. I gave them a very small amount notes…one in particular, I think…that they used.
Then I advised them to put the script on the internet, and I gave them a supportive quote. But ultimately, it came down to this: the script made people laugh. Those guys get their own work based on their own writing. And the reason I even know them in the first place is simple: I was impressed by the way they wrote in a writer’s forum on the internet. They made me laugh.
They did this through their own talent. Did we help? Sure. But if their script hadn’t been as sickly fucked up and funny as it was, it wouldn’t have mattered. Was it smart to use the pseudonym “Robotard?” Yes. Was that entirely their idea? Yup.
I think you think we’re some kind of job-generating group of conspirators. We’re not. We just like each other. Certainly John August would be astonished to hear he’s “the big gun” at the center of some group.
John’s not a run-a-cabal type. John’s the classic writer…off in a hotel room somewhere in isolation, long-handing a script on legal pads.
Or coding his site. Of which I am envious.
The one thing you said that really bothered me, though, is this: ” It’s always been a sad truth that sucking up to screenwriters is a terrible way to get work, but you guys seem to have figured out a way around that.”
None of us suck up to any of us. We don’t have to. We all had careers before we met each other. We don’t produce each other’s work. We don’t give each other jobs.
You then asked:
“Is any of this conscious and formalized, or did it just start to happen?”
Do you not know how friendship works? We all actually like each other, dude. Believe me, I’ve met very big screenwriters…genius screenwriters, even…that I did not like, and with whom I do not hang out. I don’t need to hang out with anyone I don’t like. That’s one of the best things about being a writer.
BTW, I responded to your post as if it were honestly intended, rather than just a really lengthy troll. My answer stands, regardless.
Your sincere answer is appreciated, Craig, but for all that you’ve said here, it’s still a mystery how a pair of writers whose only achievement is a mention on the Black List end up being invited to a reputable screenwriting conference. Forgive me for thinking that maybe the fact that half the friends who raved about the script on their site just happened to be at the same conference might have had something to do with it, but it does seem awfully coincidental, and it was that sort of thing I was asking about. My point being that there’s no way these guys get the attention they’re getting if not for the efforts of people like you and your other friends. It’s that mechanism I’m interested in.
Ray:
I think you’re assuming you know more than you do.
One of the Robotard has been writing on a primetime network show all year, and used to write for South Park long before I knew him.
The other member of the Robotard has projects set up with Jamie Fox and Fox Animation and is writing a tentpole movie for Warner Brothers.
All you know about them is their script on the Black List.
But sure, when people say “Hey, do you know anyone else that would be good for a panel on the Black List?” it’s pretty easy for someone that knows the Robotard to say, “Sure. I’m friends with these guys who were just on it and got a ton of response because of it.”
Success doesn’t occur because of, or in isolation from, interpersonal connections.
@redhead
I’m sorry film school didn’t work out better for you. Best of luck in the future.
@ Ray,
To pile on to Craig’s comment, one of The Robotard is also a friend of mine, and I will second that he works his ass off and had a career years before he met these guys or landed on The Black List. Dues paid, rewards reaped, let’s move on.
That aside, it sounds like you have a problem with someone’s career being advanced due to their relationships. But, dude, careers are built on relationships. That’s how life works. Instead of being pissed, you should be inspired — to nurture your relationships. And I mean real ones because fake ones won’t serve you. Fake friends won’t take the time to read your screenplay and give you notes, and they won’t trade on their reputation to help you advance your career. This is something you do for people you like and respect. And honestly, it’s easier to like and respect someone who enjoys another’s success than in someone who wants to tear them down. Might wanna check yourself.
The starter of The Black List was recently on KCRW’s “The Business” podcast. He described how the list is arrived at, and confessed that it can be “gamed” thanks to the current e-voting mechanism in place. He also drove home the idea that the list is NOT a best of the rest but more like a unique voice category — geared more towards small, indie films.
But I think Ray made some good points. I thought Craig’s inclusion of the Black List as part of his passing criteria was an odd add-on. Maybe this is why? I also wonder if the venom for the guru mentioned is driven more by a personal experience than a desire to help others save some money.
dave:
I think people who get on the Black List have shown an ability to catch the eye of Hollywood executives with spec work. Ergo, they are relevant to people who are trying to catch the eye of Hollywood executives with spec work.
As for script “gurus,” I have never attended any “how to write” seminars or paid for any coverage or consulting in my life. Insert “and that’s why you suck” joke here.
Ray -
I was invited to speak at the Austin Film Festival a few years ago. I’m not sure why, but some people I had informally given advice to apparently recommended me. I’ve been going for a bit and I enjoy it. They don’t pay me and every year except one, I have picked up my own flight and room. This year, I offered to moderate and discussed possible panel ideas with them. They focus on the screenwriter and breaking in and chose to do panels on that topic and the Black List. Who better than the Robotard to discuss writing a unique script and then, when none of your reps will send it out (!), how to go out and get some attention with it. This is what a lot of people looking to break-in want to know about. They did it. I recommended them heartily. Further, they both had careers, credits, agents before the Black List. And neither of them has put themselves out there as paid consultants. Though they could, they are smart and good writers. And it was that mechanism that you are interested in that was discussed there. At no additional charge.
But writers always have a gaggle of writer friends.
Spouses, managers, projects, seasons, all come and go, but your writer friends, they’re your little bit of sanity in it all.
You collect them along the way.
Through parties, friends, or they’re working with someone you know.
But actors usually have a lot of actor friends too. Animators have that as well. It’s perfectly normal.
They’re just people you’re close to because of the common ground.
As opposed to some weird conspiracy.
Please don’t heckle and harass. There are people reading here who want to hear what their experiences and thoughts are, without having to witness them being assaulted.
(or me, no one wants to witness me being assaulted either)
Craig,
No, I just meant that you or your pals may have had some interaction with Seger in another context. And I would never imply that you’d be so moronic as to seek out some other avenue (like a seminar/book/etc) to learn one thing about writing that you don’t already know. Forgive me if you got that impression. Perhaps my writing is unclear — and poor — b/c I bought a used copy of some Screenwriting Expo dvd on eBay for 7 bucks and watched it (then sold on eBay for $6). I guess I’m just a sucker that sucks.
dave:
No worries. Derek did do a panel with her and was unimpressed. But I’ve never met her (or any of the others).
We’re all suckers that suck, dude. That’s kind of why I wrote this. There’s a world of people out there who know that we’re sucky suckers in a vulnerable state. Don’t let them take advantage of you.
I think a dollar for the Screenwriting Expo seems like a fair price.
I think Ray is coming from a fairly common place amongst those who have tried over a significant time and (so far) failed to be “discovered”. I saw it in being part of administering a writing contest, and the kind of mail we got from some of those who didn’t “finish in the money” after the winners were announced. Ray’s is by far at the polite end of that scale, btw. . .but the unspoken attitude that someone has got to be having an unfair advantage (and how do I get me some of that?) is easily recognizable.
If you find yourself believing that your lack of success is due to your lack of connections, then just quit.
You’re never going to make it.
Yoo-Hoo !! We’ve got another one !!
Just bring the stretcher over. I don’t know, maybe put them all in that same room together.
Uhm, one dvd, with a bit of luck, it was all in one ear and out the other. Can anyone else smell alcohol?
Either way, he’ll recover.
Connie,
Don’t worry. I’ll be fine. I have an appointment with Dennis Palumbo on Monday morning.
Paula,
I don’t know why you think I’m pissed. My questions are genuine. What we have here is a crowd of screenwriters, none of whom is exactly the next Steve Zallian, who seem to travel in a pack, and who seem to work together to promote the careers of younger writers they meet on the internet. This is all fine – I believe that if you’re an A Number One, top notch writer, all the bullshit will take care of itself. But the rest of us have to seek out whatever edge we can.
I don’t know how to talk about this without putting the Robotard script in the context I perceive it – to someone who’s not in the world of comedy, I suppose it might seem pretty ballsy, but it really is a rehash of stuff the best writers were done with a decade ago. So the success of the writers is interesting to those of us who see ourselves as competent but not brilliant. I’m never going to reinvent the wheel, but I can write at the level of Balls Out in my sleep, so this is relevant to me, and I bet, to others.
There are a hundred websites where working writers offer their insights, and they’re fine. But this group strikes me as different, and so I’m interested in insight into that difference. I understand the way I’ve phrased my questions is a little blunt, and even rude, and I apologize. But if we were talking about Paddy Chayefsky, Ben Hecht and Quentin Tarantino, these questions wouldn’t be relevant.
Nah. That should be deleted.
Pronto.
Bad form.
That’s not fair. We’re not in a position to compare it to your work, most haven’t read the script, or even know these people.
That comment should be removed.
Ray are you a script consultant? Is your livelihood being threatened?
Ray Motess:
In fact, Robotard is older than I am. You’re consistently making false assumptions.
If you can write something as good or better than Balls Out, then you’re fine. Do it. It will get read and appreciated. We know this, because Balls Out was read and appreciated. In a sense, you’re a lock for success. Not sure why you’re wasting your time in here. You’re golden. Go! Make that sale!
Ray -
Travel in a pack? You don’t know what you’re talking about. I’ve been going to Austin for 3 or 4 years. Craig and the other writers you’re trashing weren’t there any of those years. I’m friends with some you’ve mentioned for ten years, others I’m barely professionally acquainted with. Similarly for them and their friends. You seem bitter and angry that other people (not you) have varying degrees of friends and acquaintances (not you) and widely varying degrees of success.
I’ve had lunch with the Robotard though.
Connie,
I don’t know why you think you need to read my material to judge my comments. The point is that these writers are making the most of what they’ve got, and that’s what we should all be aspiring to. Whether or not you agree that I’m as good as them worse than them or better than them has nothing to do with anything.
Craig,
By “younger writers,” I meant writers who hadn’t broken in yet. It’s a standard industry term.
By the way, I do this for a living. I’m sorry you’ve taken umbrage at my comments. With the exception of your comment where you said you have no idea how to game the Black List, all your comments have been straight forward and honest, but I do get the sense that this is striking a chord you’re not comfortable with. Sorry.
Ray Motess:
If you do this for a living, then seriously…dude…what are you going on about? You’re working, so what does it matter who else is working and how they get their work?
I really resent your suggestion that I secretly DO know how to game the Black List. Here’s what I know about the Black List. It was started by Franklin Leonard, and people in the business vote on what scripts get put on it, and it’s the best unmade or unsold scripts of that year. Not sure which. You think I’m lying or something? Why?
That’s the chord I’m not comfortable with. If you don’t trust the people with whom you’re debating, then don’t waste your time. If you do, don’t suggest otherwise.
Anyway, look, Ray is on some weird irrational tangent. Something here has undermined his foundation.
Maybe he’s put faith in these things and he finds them hard to let go of. And he’s lashing out in his attempt to cling to them.
Well, better sooner than later. You don’t need any of it. You just think you do. That’s why they’re so heinous. The hold they put on writers.
And you know what?
Just start again.
That’s what you’re constantly having to do anyway.
Every new script is a new beginning.
Like I mentioned, I don’t think Leonard characterizes The Black List that way — and he admits that it can be gamed.
Here’s the link to the recent podcast…
http://www.kcrw.com/etc/programs/tb
Quirky, unique — and usually dark. But not necessarily the best –i.e., there are better un-produced scripts, but they don’t fit the BL mold.
I thought the Robotard3000 thing was a great gimmick, and a nice application of viral marketing to the Hollywood internetz microcosm. I got as many links to the script as I did rickrolls (this was back in the era of the rickroll), several from CEs. So it obviously caught the right kind of attention.
Did it live up to the hype? No, but it at least sort of/kind of delivered on its promise of a “balls out” shock comedy.
Did it deserve to be on the Black List? Probably not, but then neither did Jennifer’s Body.
But kinda back on topic…
No amount of courses, seminars and consultant fees will turn a bad writer into a great one. But then that’s not what these “screenwriting gurus” are shilling. They shill by-the-numbers formulas, pats on the back and a whole lot of useless jargon to people daydreaming about circa 1986 spec sale money. And it empowers people who probably shouldn’t be empowered at all. And that’s how they’re damaging. They clutter up the pipeline and devalue the craft by telling folks “anyone can do it.” Shit, enough people in the BIZ think that already.
So while it’s certainly your own business if you want to pay 1996 Honda Accord money for possibly bad advice to some lady/gent with shady credentials, there are ramifications larger than you getting duped.
oh, man, is Ray dave?
This is messing with my head. They think they can drag me into their weird cyber nightmare by taunting me with a link.
ah ah, no way, I don’t do anonymous links.
And who the hell is Leonard?
Please. This should be closed for comments. It’s just going to cause anxiety. He/it/they’re cyber bullying the robotard.
blah blah blah whatever.
The end.
Connie,
I wasn’t addressing you (that’s why it didn’t say “Connie,” at the top). And “Leonard” is Franklin Leonard, creator of The Black List — as mentioned in Craig’s post. The link is to a podcast that follows “The Business” like the trades. He was interviewed by Kim Masters (who now works at THR, I believe) regarding his list and “The Beaver”.
You sound a bit paranoid and delusional yourself.
So, please calm down.
p.s. I haven’t mentioned Robotard once.
I’m glad I came back! Quite a discussion going on.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but my experience informs me that access, reputation and perceived “heat” are absolutely vital when it comes to assignments and especially spec sales. These things can absolutely compensate for poor quality. But that’s just my (rather strong) opinion. For what it’s worth.
Hey, Craig, I’m not a fan of Screenwriter Expo either (not that I’m knocking anyone, to each their own), but I was wondering why you thought conferences like Austin Film Festival differed. You’re obviously a supporter of that event. I attended WGA Foundation event in Santa Monica in ’97 or ’98 and found it terrible. I’m far too proud to attend any of these things again unless I’m invited as a speaker!
(I’m a working writer but do not have the resume of the speakers they do have)
Tom Vaughan:
I like Austin because it’s not about selling people crap. Rather, it’s about people listening to professionals talk about screenwriting…both in large and small groups. That’s really useful. For instance, I was on a panel with Mary Coleman from Pixar, and we talked about what makes a good meeting, what’s proper meeting etiquette, etc. That’s legitimately useful stuff from two people on either side of the table who have been in a ton of meetings over the course of their careers.
I’ve never been to a WGA Foundation event, so I can’t comment.
So, the deal is re: Austin that the uninitiated ask how to get into the business for millionth time and the answer is always the same; “Fucked if I know.” But twenty clams for a book that says essentially the same thing is highway robbery? Not for nothing, man, your heart’s in the right place, but your head’s up your ass. I went to Austin to hear the stories about great writers and their endeavors, I couldn’t give two shits about getting an agent or selling a spec; ain’t in the cards, my man. The business is only one side, and frankly not a terribly interesting one. Look, I understand that it’s unfair for one of the suck-holes like me to come running up to you with the intention of gleaning the silver bullet off you, as if there was such a thing. But you need to step back and look at the truth; every soul who walked up to you in Austin and asked the dreaded question are the pathetic saps who’ll always talk about how they want to get into screenwriting without ever actually doing it. I know because I’m one of them. It’s not self pity, it’s just reality. In that case, it’s worth whatever you pay to learn, if indeed you want to learn. And being snotty about it while extolling your own success is like fucking with the kids on the short bus; yeah you can do it so long as you don’t mind coming off like a douche. In any event, you want money, rob a bank. I hear that’s where they keep it.
Uhm, well, Billy, I think you should go rob one. It could be your best shot.
No, I’m serious. And if you get caught, it’ll be even better.
You’ll make headlines, DISGRUNTLED WANNABEE SCREENWRITER ALSO FAILS AT CRIMINAL BACK UP CAREER.
And then you can share a cell with Mel or Lindsay or some other DUI offender sitting in there with nothing better to do than listen to your pitch.
True. It’s the new way to break into the biz.
But you can’t call Craig a douche for warning new writers about the traps and pitfalls and scammers. It just makes you look like a douche.
He’s doing you and them a favor in that.
And if he has to put up with a few insults for the sake of airing the issue, well, I’m sure he doesn’t care.
And anyway, you’re asking the wrong people, Craig probably can’t even remember the exact steps leading up to “breaking in”. That was a long time ago, many scripts back.
They all sort of break in the same way. They write a lot, talk to a lot of people, collaborate, push their work forward when ever they can, and then two things fall together, then another, then that leads to something else, then there’s that occasional weird side step. You know.
But even by asking that question you’re reflecting this approach of having things handed to you in a simplified formula. An easy to follow step by step guide, handed to you by Craig, just like the book did, and the consultant did.
See. They’ve made you dependent on a simple, generic, “how to”, one size fits all, gift wrapped answer.
Craig is explaining that you have to get there yourself. Not out of spite, that’s just the reality.
Now please, stop this awful abuse. If you don’t want to take his advice, then fine, don’t. But stop proving what an angry casualty of this you are.
THEY exploited you, Craig didn’t.
Billy Pilgrim:
You’re all over the place with that one. Not sure what to say.
He’s shooting the messenger.
But maybe it would be good to hear Billy’s story.
Which books brought you to this way of seeing. Who have you been paying to guide you to this state of mind?
@Billy #121
I’m really confused by your post — are you speaking ABOUT the civilian (non-pro) conference folks in Austin, or claiming to speak FOR them?
When you start using words like “suck-hole” and “pathetic saps,” I wonder what kind of bad experience you had that gave you such an aggressively negative opinion of not just the pro participants there, but of all participants and the industry in general.
“But even by asking that question you’re reflecting this approach of having things handed to you in a simplified formula. An easy to follow step by step guide, handed to you by Craig, just like the book did, and the consultant did.”
Right on, Connie. What I take away from Craig’s post is not that all books/consultants/festivals/whatever are bullshit. But that you have to put what they can offer in perspective.
If you believe they’re a quick-hit, magic bullet to selling a spec or getting a career, you believe a fantasy. And the frustration you’ll experience chasing that fantasy is wasted energy you could better use writing scripts and hustling your stuff.
At worst, it’ll kill your budding career cuz you feel that everyone who succeeds has THE SECRET, and you don’t.
The real answer is that these working writers WERE YOU (and me), and had the exact same frustrations all of us aspirants have right now.
But they made it by writing like crazy and getting their stuff out there, not by paying another consultant or buying another book saying to themselves, “finally, this is the one.”
Guy wants to learn to play guitar. He picks one up and starts playing. Maybe he’s Jimmy Page right off the bat, but probably not. In fact, the odds are overwhelming that he’s not; billions-to-one even. Now, by Craig’s rationale, this guy doesn’t need to to ever buy a fake book or How-To or For Dummies, he just needs to play and listen to records. And if the guy can play “In My time of Dying” without flubbing a lick, Craig’s absolutely right; just keep on playing and listening. But what if the guy sucks? What if the guy’s no good at all, but he’s determined to keep at it because he loves the doing, getting lost in it? He buys a couple of books, pays some money to go to one of Gordie Johnson’s clinics, orders a couple of Satriani’s DVDs on line. Maybe he gets a little better. He ain’t ever gonna be great, but he’s better than he was because he learned a few tips and tricks and he gets a hint of inspiration. Now, Connie and Craig argue that this guy’s an asshole because he spent money he shouldn’t have on shit he didn’t need. I disagree. I think the guy got what he paid for so long as he took whatever lessons he could use and internalized them. Syd Field helped me out when I needed a little discipline, McKee helped when I couldn’t figure why in the good fuck I sucked so bad at doing something I love. And I got scammed into paying for coverage, but it turned out great because it took me down a shitload of pegs when I got an opinion from someone who wasn’t a relative. I still read King’s On Writing and Joe Eszterhaz’s Devil’s Guide to Hollywood every couple of months for inspiration. All valuable to me far past the money I sank into it. And Connie, I’ll go you one better; you keep coming back with how Craig probably can’t remember how he got into the biz and it doesn’t matter because everyone’s trip is different. Shouldn’t the same rule apply to learning the craft? Isn’t it better to look for something valuable to you wherever you might be able to find it, then get on it and go? No, I ain’t shooting the messenger. The messenger got it wrong is all.
And maybe it’s dangerous for me to come even half-close to offering to speak for Craig or interpret his meaning… but let me try.
When I heard Craig (and others) first discuss this topic in Austin (before he gave the advice to a public panel), the gist of it was “it’s sad to see so many would-be writers fall into the trap of spending a whooooole bunch of money and a whooooole bunch of time trying to accommodate the advice of a bunch of self-anointed experts whose usefulness and industry stature is unclear at best.”
I’ve never taken his advice — either in that convo or in panels or in the discussion here — to mean what some have tried to suggest he is saying: that teachers and mentors and advice in any shape are wrong and useless, and that every writer should stumble blind in the wilderness until Genius visits him and brings him back a changed man.
I’ve taken his advice to mean “learn enough to know what you need to do, and then focus on writing rather than studying which is often just a nice sounding word for ‘not writing’.”
I know some folks who brag ad nauseum about how they spent some-thousand dollars on THIS guru or some-hundreds on THAT course or whatever amount of time and money on SO AND SO program and blah blah blah… IOW, eventually you have to set aside all the books and videos and classes on playing hoops and you need to pick up a ball and start dribbling.
That’s what I’ve taken from all this. Maybe I’m wrong. But — for various reasons — I’m pretty sure I’m not.
@ Brett
Couldn’t agree more. The only thing worse than someone name-dropping celebrities is someone name-dropping writing gurus. It’s just … ouch.
@ Billy Pigrim
I don’t think Craig is saying that all books are a complete waste of time (Consultants? He may be saying that). But more that they have limited value, and they’re potentially dangerous when they claim to have THE FIX for all your writing problems. Cuz they don’t. And that’s cuz no one does.
But if your expectations are in line with what books and consultants can offer, then no problem here. You learn how you can. And books are far more cost-effective than consultants.
It’s when those things become a substitute for more substantial efforts (writing) that you have a problem. No writer should fall into that trap, and we do.
Craig wrapped up his post like this:
“And then remember that the best possible instructor you could ever have is staring at you in the mirror. $0 per session. Not a bad price. Start writing.”
That message should be empowering, not threatening.
It would be empowering if it weren’t such complete horseshit. I spent five years trying to teach myself how to write screenplays and the product of that time was so galacticly fucking bad that even Vogons couldn’t deal with it. If they existed. And I didn’t start getting better until I got a few books on the topic and began looking into the mechanics of the thing. Then I started to get a little better, as I’ve explained.
The other part of what I’m saying is this; for every one Craig Mazin out there, ten million Billy Pilgrims are wandering in the Wilderness of the Untalented (and Sweet Jesus, a gracious plenty of them find their way to the Austin Film Festival; I know, I was there). These poor bastards mill about, hoping that someone will say, “Look kid, I know you’re different from all these other schmucks, I know you’ve got the goods, now hand over that wonderful script and I’ll tell Spielberg to get his ass ready to go to work on his next masterpiece!” Christ, who wouldn’t want that to happen to them? But it won’t. Not ever. Given that, these books and gurus who Craig would like us to ignore become pretty much all we have to cling to. Tiny, ephemeral shreds of hope, or, put simply, another form of entertainment. Weekend golfers buy expensive clubs, dilettante guitarists buy expensive Gibson SG’s and screenwriters buy expensive advice/criticism/tickets to seminars. My problem with Craig coming out so hard against that stuff is that he could just as easily keep his mouth shut and some kid (who will never be any competition to Craig whatsoever) will spend a little cash and get to believe the Great Big Lie for a little while. We’re all aware that life sucks, so a few moments in some sort of bliss are worth it. Reality will come crashing in and take care of any of Craig’s concerns, I promise you.
Billy P.–
Craig’s not writing this site for the fantasy hobbyists who are resentful when anyone dares to momentarily puncture their personal willing suspension of disbelief. His post isn’t addressed to this consultant industry for its entertainment value, in the same sense that middle-aged fat guys willingly pay large sums to get out and run around on the playing field with retired professional athletes at the athlete version of the fantasy camps you are defending for writers.
Billy,
Craig is not addressing dilettantes and hobbyists. For them the only criterion is whether they personally feel that they got something worthwhile in return for their money. If someone buys a Linda Seger book for $10 and enjoys reading it, then fine, $10 well spent. Heck, if a hobbyist pays her $1200 for a script analysis and feels like he got his money’s worth, more power to him.
However, note what Craig wrote in his original post:
“I want to talk to you. You go to screenwriting conferences because you want to be a professional. You want to sell a script. You’re a student. You want to learn.”
He’s addressing people who want to become professional screenwriters. People who might be seduced by the idea that paying $1200 to Linda Seger will help advance their careers. Not people thinking that paying $10 to Linda Seger will get them an interesting book to read.
I have a couple of Linda Seger’s books, and I did enjoy reading them. I even got some helpful writing tips out of them. But it’s clear to me that the advice I get online from working pro writers like Craig and Ted and Bill and the other folks mentioned previously is more valuable for my screenwriting toolset.
So, Craig’s blog is strictly for those who’re working professionals in the film industry, no one else. Right?
I guess I should’ve typed faster. At any rate, it’s nice to see so much traffic around here again.
Billy, this particular post of Craig’s was addressed specifically to people who want to become professionals. That doesn’t mean there’s nothing for anyone else here.
Billy Pilgrim:
You seem to be arguing that losers deserve to have sweet nothings whispered to them. I’m part aghast, part amused.
I prefer the truth. Sorry you find it inconvenient. For what it’s worth, this has nothing to do with competition.
Nor is this at all analogous to hobbies like golf or playing music. I’ve taken golf and drum and piano and guitar lessons, because I wanted to learn to play golf and piano and drums and guitar with some varying level of proficiency.
Not because I wanted to be a professional.
Unfortunately, screenwriting isn’t a hobby or pastime, Billy. It’s a job. No one wants you to sit around a campfire and write a screenplay. No one wakes up early on a Saturday to write a screenplay with their buddies for a few hours, followed by lunch and drinks.
Maybe you’re a troll, or you’re using this forum to work out some rather odd personal issues, or you’re just flexing your creative muscles by inventing this weird, pseudo-cowboy sad sack character.
Regardless, no one’s buying it.
My argument is that there are plenty of people who want to become professionals yet never will. For those folks, being called a moron by Craig- who is a professional- is embarrassing and a little demeaning. All I’m saying is the gig’s tough enough without having more shit piled on. And of course, Craig, Connie, everybody, we’re all entitled to our opinion and somewhat entitled to express it.
Billy Pilgrim:
Yes, plenty of people will never make it.
Those people, more than anyone, reeeeeally shouldn’t waste their money on trying to make it. Particularly because many of them have spouses and children. A local charity is a better recipient.
If you are going to make it, you don’t need to waste your money on trying to make it.
Ergo…spending money on these misery vultures is dumb and wrong.
If you think that’s me making your life harder, well guess what? I agree. I just took away your floaties and told you that you have to learn to swim without them. Go ahead and throw your tantrum. Cry a little…cling to the side of the pool…whatever you need.
Just my opinion, of course. Expressing it, etc.
I’m still not seeing where Craig piled shit on anyone except those morons who waste loads of money on expensive programs and courses and mentor-for-hire relationships which seem clearly designed to benefit the payee far far more than the payer.
When I worked in advertising, my good friends also worked in advertising. We’d hang out, watch baseball, play golf together, go to dinner with our significants, and shoot the shit about the business. After years of writing professionally, I made friends with other writers and now we hang out, watch baseball, play golf together, go to dinner with our significants and shoot the shit about the business. Occasionally a film festival asks us to speak and says, “who else would you recommend speaking?” Les Bohem, a writer who helped found the Nashville Conference, asked us to come up with a panel and invite whomever we wanted to speak on it. So I think that’s why you see some of us at the same things. We do like hanging out together. Nashville and Austin are two great conferences… maybe because they’re music towns, the people who hail from there find importance in the writers as much as the performers. If you want to learn to play the guitar, great. Just be wary of people who tell you for $5000, they can get you an audition to be in REM. (By the way, you can pretty much learn how to play any song you want for free on the internet these days.)
No sir, you’re absolutely right. Losers don’t need to be coddled or cut a break one bit. Let’s you and me go find a bus full of retarded kids and beat the living fuck out of ‘em to prove that we can! That’ll show ‘em!
You oughta watch how you treat the least among us, man.
Billy Pilgrim:
You routinely compare yourself to the mentally retarded, or a charity case.
Please quit. You’re seriously wasting your time.
Billy, are you not getting that screenwriting is a profession? No one’s telling you not to pursue hobbies, but you should at least pursue hobbies that offer gratification. If you’re as bad a writer as you say, why expend energy writing the blueprints for films that will never get made? A screenplay is not a final product. There is no market or audience for them as stand-alone works. So what do desk drawer screenplays net you besides frustration and bitterness?
Start a blog, publish e-books, twitter, tumbl. There are so many fucking ways for you as a hobbyist to get your words out there — to get instant feedback, maybe even develop an audience — that are easy and completely gratis. If you’re not looking to play the film biz game with the big boys, if you admit yourself that you don’t have the juice to be a pro, why put all that time and energy into screenplays? Why why why? I just don’t get it.
Because I want to. I love the doing of it. And there’s a fuckton of people like me out there- far more than there will ever be of you, Craig, or you Ronnie. And if, as Craig would have it, that we all need to have false hope stripped from us, then isn’t that census the heart of the matter? This is to say nothing of the fact that no one can say for certain that any avenue might offer something to a person who wants to learn. These people who are parasites in the view of pros like yourselves might offer something to people like me that isn’t attached to a paycheck. And that if you do take something away from that, that you’re not automatically a fuckin’ moron, as Craig would have us believe. Comparing myself to the mentally challenged is you how stated it, man. I’m using your language.
Billy, am I reading #144 wrong, or are you vigorously fighting for your right to pay someone to give you false hope?
I’m a little lost …
Forget it, Jake (Justin, too) — it’s Chinatown.
Actually, that would be OUR right.
I’m not sure how saying This advice is more useful than That advice is equivalent to ‘beating the living fuck out of retarded people.’ There are more and less useful ways to learn and improve your writing. There are no rules or guaranteed paths, but there are strategies that professionals tend to use in their work and their career. Why shouldn’t someone who knows suggest that this is true? Anyone can read your script and give you their opinion. Anyone can watch a movie and make up a theory about why it’s good or not. Anyone. The guy who works the slushie machine at 7-11 has an opinion, just like the career seminar leader, just like the working professional writer.
My point is that I have access to the guy manning the Slushie machine. I’m fully aware that access is conversely proportional to expertise (ie Value), but you’ve got to play what’s laid. I just don’t think we need to be chastised for it. that’s equivalent to beating the living fuck out of retarded people.
Sometimes retarded people need tough love, Billy. Because they’re retarded.
You want to read (the cyber-equivalent of) the greatest screenwriting book in the history of ever? Go here:
http://www.wordplayer.com/columns/welcome.html
And… Wow… Guess what? It’s free!
Fair enough.
But a lot of this was triggered by Craig using the word “moron”. Which Billy, he was using in a lighter context that you took it. He wasn’t calling “you” a moron, just what you represent to these people selling you things. But that’s what struck the nerve isn’t it.
Maybe we could change the word moron for the word bunny.
You’re the bunny.
You’re the bunny who speaks for all the other bunnies.
If you need the books to write you’re dependent on them. So just put all of that away. That’s the first problem you have to solve. Get rid of the books. You don’t need to spend more time reading at this point in time.
Generally speaking, writers are compelled to write because the story excites them.
So, just wait until you’ve got a story that excites you enough. And then nature just takes care of itself.
I apologize in advance for the long response, but please read it through. I’ve seen a lot of anonymous posters here and other sites discussing consultants and how we are all liars, cheats, and hacks who only want to screw writers out of money. And I think it’s time for someone to defend the profession – and not be anonymous either. My name is Danny Manus and I run No BullScript Consulting. I teach and speak at many of these conferences around the country, I have an E-Book sold at the Writers Store, and I love writers. I am sick of being called a hack. A cheat. A shark. A “failure.” Just because I haven’t become an A-List writer making millions for my screenplays doesn’t mean I don’t know what I’m talking about. It doesn’t mean I’m not qualified to help a struggling writer. Or a professional writer. And by the way, just because someone DOES make millions as a writer, doesn’t mean they have any business teaching anyone else how to write.
Are there people – like Linda Seger – who charge WAY too much for WAY too little? Absolutely. Is anyone worth 5K to read your script and give you notes? NO. My rule is – your script should not cost the same as your car. But there are very few who charge that much money. Are some script consultants failed producers? Yes. Are some failed writers? Yes. Are some hacks? Yeah. And McKee, Seger, Hauge, Rotcop – they are a bit antiquated. But there are new voices out there that can help.
I was a development exec. I’ve worked on indies and studio films (though no huge blockbusters). And yes, I came out to Hollywood to write and I was pretty darn good in fact, but I loved development and followed that track. I was doing freelance consulting for ScriptShark to make extra cash on the side. And when I lost my exec job in the Writers’ Strike and there were no jobs out there for quite a while (and the ones I was up for ended up going to some large-breasted Agency-assistant fresh off a desk – not bitter), well, I had to pay rent. I knew I was really good at giving notes – so I went into consulting and launched my own company. Am I failed development exec? I don’t know. Honestly, some days I feel like I am, but most days I don’t because I know I was damn good at my job. And I’m still working on a number of projects as a producer. But through my experience of reading thousands of scripts, I noticed all these common mistakes – all these things writers were doing wrong. And who else was going to help them fix that? Not you, Craig. Or you, Derek. Or you, Jeff.
Writers should do their research and their due diligence and find a consultant that is right for them. But don’t dismiss a whole profession just because YOU, Craig, haven’t needed to use one and you got a bad taste in your mouth from ONE over-priced consultant. I haven’t had to use a cosmetic surgeon, and I think many of them are unethical heathens harping on people’s insecurities to take money for unnecessary procedures. But I don’t discount that they are educated or that some people genuinely need them or that some do truly great work.
The same thing that makes for a good writer, makes for a good script consultant. We watch and study movies and scripts. We read thousands of scripts. The good, bad and truly ugly. We don’t get to just read the pre-vetted crème de la crème scripts that our WME agents send us – we have to read EVERYTHING. We have to follow the marketplace, the news, know what’s selling, what isn’t, who’s looking for what, what contests are ripoffs, what’s in development, etc. And of course, we have to know good writing and how to fix it when it’s gone astray. Maybe not every script consultant does this – but they should. Just because I don’t choose (or currently make the time) to use my talents to write my own brilliant screenplay, doesn’t mean I’m not qualified to help others do it.
It would be WONDERFUL if every writer could read scripts and automatically know what works and what doesn’t about it, and know how to relate that to their own writing and make their scripts shine on their own. But 99% of writers don’t. YOU do, Craig, as you’ve been doing this for quite a while at a level that 99% of writers don’t get to work at. But when MOST writers read Sorkin or Tarantino, they start to think that if they are just really verbose or their description is more like novelistic prose, they are doing it right. They DON’T KNOW. That’s where we, consultants, come in.
We provide a service. We provide guidance and (hopefully) constructive, valuable feedback. And most of us deserve to be paid for this. We provide an educated, experienced opinion which should be given more weight than one’s mother, best friend, or fellow unproduced writer’s group member. And it’s not JUST amateur wannabe writers who use us. I have a few professional writers – working writers – who run their scripts by me because they trust my opinion. I even have a few managers and agents who use me to get an outside perspective on their clients’ work.
Screenwriting might be free, but breaking into Hollywood certainly is not. If it was free for you, congratulations – you must have known somebody who helped you break in. Or perhaps you went to film school and worked your way up (as I did) – but most screenwriters trying to break in, don’t.
How nice it was of you, Craig, to offer to read every wannabe screenwriters’ scripts for free and give them comprehensive and constructive notes. Oh wait…you didn’t offer that? Gee, I guess it’s a good thing there are people who do. And if you DID offer that, you’d quickly realize you deserve to be paid for the task. And you’d quickly realize the importance of script consultants. Or you’d turn into Josh Olson and start ranting and raving like he did about how he “doesn’t want to read your fucking script.” You can hang out and trade scripts with your A-List writer friends, but you have no idea what it’s like to read 300 scripts a year that are true pieces of shit. True ‘Passes’.
Derek Haas said in Post #14 that he doubts anyone is like Simon Cowell, telling people they should just try something else. Well, maybe do a little research first. I tell all my clients right on my website – that I am a “Simon.” In fact, it’s how I’ve made a name for myself as a consultant (hence my company’s name). If I think a writer is wasting their time, I have no interest in taking their money and giving them false hope. Not everyone is supposed to be a writer, not every script – no matter WHO works on it or “fixes” it – is good enough to be submitted (much less bought or produced). There are people out there telling the truth. Yes, I can count them on one hand, but we are out there.
And on the Simon Cowell note…He’s not a singer, a musician, a songwriter, or a performer- but he knows what the hell he’s talking about. He’s been AROUND those musical types and even though he’s the least musical of the bunch, he’s the judge everyone respects. I like the NFL Coach and Art Teacher analogies some people brought up, but Simon Cowell’s an even better example. I promise you, the non-musician Cowell gets more demos sent his way to peruse than ANY single musician working today. Why? Because A-List talent usually doesn’t like to help the little guy. Or they don’t have time to. Your rants, stories and tips are entertaining and can be educational, but not everyone can be self-taught.
Writers don’t like when they are all grouped into one category and painted with the same brush, and neither do consultants. We’re not all the same. Some of us are good people with real talent who want to help make scripts better – and we know how to do it. I’ve only been running No BullScript for 18 months, but I’ve had 2 of my clients sell their scripts, 2 recent contest winners, and a Disney Fellowship winner, and I don’t placate my clients. Out of the hundreds of clients I’ve had in 18 months, I’ve given only 8 Recommends. Eight. I find that repeat business doesn’t come from giving out ‘recommends’ like they are candy on Halloween. It comes from giving tough, constructive notes that let a writer see possibilities in their story they never thought of and showing them how to improve their writing.
And a little note to Jeff Lowell…We’ve met before – we’re even Facebook friends (for whatever that means). I was even brought in to see an advance screening of your movie “Over My Dead Body” and give my thoughts. And it astonishes me how much you love feeling like the leader in your little Lord of the Flies wannabe-screenwriters world. You really don’t have anything better to do – as an “A-List” writer – than blog all day on DoneDealPro or Craig’s site or any other site where you might feel like the King of the Castle? I know it’s great when writers who don’t have a fucking clue think you’re God – maybe that’s why I became a script consultant – who knows. But you take it to a whole other level, calling people out whom you don’t even know and acting like your word is gospel. I’ve read some of your posts – they are nasty, malicious and often just wrong. I’m not saying you’re not a good writer – you are. But I don’t know where you get off leading your battalion of message board-addicted wannabes in anyone’s direction.
We’re all a part of this community in some way or another. People who are out to harm each other – whether they be consultants, teachers or writers – should be weeded out. And so should those who try to take advantage of unsuspecting writers. But stop degrading a profession just because you didn’t find them necessary to YOUR career. Or hey, use a script consultant once and see for yourself. Thank you all for your time.
And that clawing at the walls in the middle of the night, that is actually a great opportunity. For me it’s when I open my eyes in the morning. And a rage wells up. That’s when I know it’s happening.
I personally think it’s aspects of a story pushing their way up from the subconscious.
Putting a lid on all that by following the steps in a book will only suppress it, or worse, mutate it into something else.
Terrible death of creativity.
Just go with it when that’s happening. Work through it in your own mind. It’s just growing pains.
Danny:
Thanks for the perspective. I still don’t think people should be paying you. That’s my strongly held belief. But I give you credit for coming here and defending yourself.
I do want to clarify one thing. When I moved to L.A., I didn’t know anyone.
okay, please, please stay calm.
Sorry, I didn’t notice dannys post.
Just let me say, Jeff posts on these places because it causes him distress to see so many writers being misguided and mislead.
There are a squillion things he’d rather be doing.
And, Billy, put your credit card in the freezer.
And see, what did I say. She’s delusional.
All we want is testimony from a writer who has, with your help, sat through the opening night of their own film.
I just thought I’d point out – not being a consultant myself – that you, Craig, are basically saying that development executives shouldn’t get paid either… That’s all a consultant is – only a consultant actually HELPS writers to get their work ready for public consumption, as opposed to simply passing without a word.
Couldn’t agree with Craig more..They should all be burned at the stake!! You tell them Craig!
No, he’s saying WRITERS shouldn’t be paying them.
If someone wants to pay a consultant to develop your script with you then fine, they want to spend the money, let them, it’s probably their script by then anyway. I’ve worked with quite a few but none of them were paid for by me.
These people want writers to pay them.
That’s an industry unto itself.
Connie, I made the argument, spoke for the zombie zoo. Best forget it and move on. Some cases, a motherfucker’s just a motherfucker, right?
Danny,
Hmmm… 8 “recommends” sounds high for 18 months, but I don’t know how much volume you’re dealing with. I’ve been a reader for five years (sad, I know — but I actually like it) and I’ve only championed one script — and a “consider” for one other. The first is actually being made as we speak.
But you make a good point about Cowell; the same point I made earlier. A writer that passes Craig’s muster isn’t necessarily a good teacher. And a writer that doesn’t isn’t necessarily a bad teacher. We can debate what anyone should be paying a teacher — but that’s ultimately their business.
If someone wants to learn to golf, he/she may just grab a club and start swinging; or read book on how to play golf — then start swinging; or, pay a country club pro big bucks for some private lessons — then start swinging. All three will learn something about playing golf. To each his own. I’ve heard this debate in many fields of endeavor. Is this any different than the “film school” or “just spend the money on camera instead and go out and start shooting!” argument? There are success stories from both sides. And with all due respect to Craig, I don’t think one person’s route to success should be viewed as the benchmark. Maybe he is just a natural at this — but the next credited screenwriter may tell a different story of how it’s done. The naturally fast guy may not be the best track coach; he may not know what makes him so fast — or how to help another person reach their top speed.
Did Arbouet get a sex change and change his name to Connie?
Yeah !! Woo-Hoo !! They’re attacking me now too !! Yippeeee!!
It’s immoral to take a writer’s money.
It’s that simple.
If you’re taking a writer’s money, you’re robbing them. You’re oblivious to their reality as well as their dreams. You don’t understand them, you don’t feel them.
Or you wouldn’t be taking their money.
If your big dream in life is to “help” writers, then get someone in the industry to give you a job.
The development people I worked with all had their names in the credits of films I’d seen.
I mean, the people who were paying them had certain standards.
Nah, Arbouet was at least somewhat lucid.
And Billy, the words you use make me feel bad. Not good. Bad.
I don’t understand why you want to make people feel bad. Whatever it is, find a way to get over it.
Take Craig’s advice. Go write.
Connie,
Didn’t you say this should be closed for comments?
Why are you still here?
You’re not going to bring up “the bunny” again are you?
Please. Don’t let us drag you into our nightmare. This will only cause you more anxiety.
blah blah blah
The End.
Connie, are there a lot of restraining orders filed against you by any chance?
dave:
I think someone already posted to this effect, but we don’t pay development executives–or a studio–to give us notes. They pay us.
Kind of an important distinction, no?
TO EVERYONE:
Please leave the childish stuff out of these comments. Stick to the issues. Thanks.
Craig,
I’m aware of the distinction. But I’m not sure how this applies to the gist of my statements. Anyway, when we reach this number of posts it’s hard to remember who said what when. The reading turns into skimming, then the skimming to glancing — but a reply comes nonetheless. I will return to my preferred status as lurker and say no more.
Adios!
Seriously, Connie? It’s immoral to take writer’s money? Seriously? Then I suppose the WGA oughta shut down. I mean, they do CHARGE for their membership and to be able to provide the services they do.
And film schools should be shut down. And UCLA Extension, and Peter Stark, and AFI…I guess they should all be shut down. Because they are doing the same thing consultants do – they are charging a fee to try to help people improve their abilities and achieve their dream knowing full well that only 1 in a 1000 might actually have a shot.
I’m not sure what you do for a living, but to say I dont understand writers because I charge them to give them help on their project, is just ridiculous. I understand exactly what writers go through. I think almost all consultants do. This isn’t called the Artist Colony – it’s called the Film BUSINESS. And the upside of consultants, is that you get the benefit of OUR work without ever having to give us credit or attach us to your project (unlike producers). Perhaps in your land of bunnies and lollipops, everyone should do everything for free and no one should ever get paid. It’s called supply and demand, and there’s nothing wrong with it- unless you’re taking ADVANTAGE of writers or making promises you can’t deliver on, and that’s a differnet story.
And development execs ONLY get credit in certain circumstances at certain companies. You’ll never see a Creative Executive at a studio get co-producer credit.
Wow. The big demons are coming out. But that’s a union. That’s still an industry thing. Similar to many other unions. It’s like tax.
But they’re standard involvements any business person has in their life/money realities.
And they’re not individuals. Telling you they can help you realize your professional ambitions. The relationship you’re striking up with your clients I believe is wholly unhealthy for them.
Screenwriting lecturers don’t get paid by their students. They get paid by the institution. And all higher education courses require a fee. It’s the case for other courses as well.
And I think it’s fairly standard to have contracts with editors spelling out what their credit is.
I’m sorry to be the one to have to tell you this danny, but you are an internet rort.
You see without the internet, the wga, film school, definitely the tax office, they’d all just keep functioning like nothing ever happened. Slight hiccup.
They’d just go back to the old filing system they used to use.
But without the internet, you’d go out of business.
Because you’d have to rely of referrals, and recommendations. Or on getting a job.
world wide web that catches the vulnerable, the lost, and I understand them. When I was starting out I used to just believe anything anyone told me. I was like a single celled ameaba, soaking anything and everything up. And that was AFTER film school.
But also, good development people don’t ever claim to know how something should be written. They know that that’s the writer’s job. They’re looking at the finished product, not the script.
So, to be qualified, you have to have some experience with the full process, from seed to completion.
And it helps to know which projects they’ve worked on, to get a bit of a grip on where they’re coming from. That’s part of the equation, when you’re listening to them.
And I only speak out because I’m independent. I can’t be accused of loyalty. Or agenda.
Listen to people whose achievements you admire.
Which is something danny doesn’t have any respect for. And that’s a worry.
Connie,
When you say “independent,” you really mean “drunk,” right?
Connie, I dont need to get into a tit for tat with a person who clearly has no idea what she’s talking about and who certainly does not know me. But I find it both sad and hilarious that you look down on people who run businesses based somewhat on internet traffic when its the very power of the internet that lets YOU converse with people who would normally never give you the time of day. Let the internet go away – PLEASE! I promise, my classes, my clients, and my business will still be fine. Where as you…you will cease to be able to spout your uneducated opinions because your chosen medium of communication will be gone. And then you’ll just be another disgruntled writer screaming at her cat.
I will not defend my experience to you, but rest assured I have been involved with the filmmaking process from seed to completion numerous times over. I never said I know how something SHOULD be written – just COULD be written. It’s always up to the writer – I dont force writers to do anything (unlike producers or studio execs). I just give an informed opinion and let the writers do as they wish.
I’m not going to comment any further on Connie’s rants. Have a Happy Halloween everyone.
Well, actually, I’d made most of my inroads before the internet was even invented, back in the days of telephones and mail. So, it hasn’t actually helped me. And looking back, most of the people I work with now, are a direct line following on from that.
And I’m only here to speak out against the damage done to writers by self proclaiming consultants, so if it weren’t for you, I wouldn’t even be here.
But I’m only “me”. I don’t know anything. Okay?
And it’s the weekend now, so if you don’t mind, I’m going to go and talk to people who actually like talking to me.
Which reminds me, how come Craig gets emoticons, and we don’t.
But to writers who have fallen prey, don’t panic.
Some of the greatest writers of the last century emerged from gulags and military states, and concentration camps.
And if they could survive that, you can survive this.
Danny, Thanks for the info about your business. It’s insightful and no, I haven’t done research on the consulting industry… I just have my thoughts based on my industry experience. I don’t understand your whole “recommend” system. What do people pay you and what do they get for it and who do you turn away? How does your business work and why is yours better than the ones I think worthless?
ETA: I just looked at your website. It looks similar to the others: especially the promise of access to your personal contact list of industry insiders. One of the insiders listed is WME. Who there is your contact? I only ask because I’d love to vet the contact and then I could come back on here and say, “it totally checks out. They love Danny at WME and take his personal recommendations quite seriously.” I’d be thrilled to do that so I can say, this guy is different than the other consultants!
Danny–
My name is Geo Rule, you can google it; you won’t be particularly impressed, nor is there any reason you should be. I just hang out here because I like writers. I just mention it since internet anonymity seems to be a hang-up for you, so I thought I’d get it out of the way.
Thanks for stopping by and telling it like you see it.
I do struggle with the tension between some of your thoughts, including that most of you consultants deserve to be paid for what you do, but only “count them on one hand” of you “are willing to tell the truth”. Umm, what?
Sure, there were Nazis with a heart of gold (I did NOT just call you a Nazi, nor do I mean to intend you, or the worst of your tribe, are even in the same ballpark –just a handy easily understandable negative stereotype), but you’ll never change the stereotype based on their number.
I also wonder how many of your “made it” students could have done so with only the (many) free resources available. That you helped them doesn’t necessarily mean they couldn’t have done it without you.
Lastly, I note that you’ve been doing this for 18 months. . . I wonder how you’ll be in 10 years or more if you keep at it. You do like money, right? You’d like to have more? If you do well, you expect more clients and more wannabes knocking down the doors to hand you their money? How do you expect that will work out? Seems to me one of two ways –your fees will go up or your standards will go down.
Oh, btw, Simon Cowell co-wrote a hit song. . . or at least he has a song writing credit on one.
If a script can sell for 250K, why is $250.00 too much to invest with a consultant? Just asking.
I agree with a lot of Danny’s philosophies, and professional writers do use script consultant’s in the guise of studio execs who give them notes. They get paid for the privledge of course while amateurs have to pay. That’s the cost of not yet breaking in.
But I do want to challenge Danny on this statement:
“If I think a writer is wasting their time, I have no interest in taking their money and giving them false hope. Not everyone is supposed to be a writer, not every script – no matter WHO works on it or “fixes” it – is good enough to be submitted (much less bought or produced).”
Most scripts suck skanky ass. So how selective can you really be? If you were really working with scripts worthy of producing, wouldn’t you be producing them and wouldn’t they be selling? I guess that in order to make a living you have to be consulting on many scripts that will never stand a snowball’s chance in hell of getting a “consider” from a studio or agency let alone produced.
To the people just reading these comments and enjoying it — have you noticed that the best posts also just happen to be the professional writers with credits to their name?
Even in the throw away comments section of a blog, the best writing is being done by great writers. In any medium, great writing stands out.I think that proves the point by itself.
Would you hire a consultant on how to write an email to your girlfriend? Or how to write a blog? Or how to post insightful comments? Never.
Using a consultant to me is like asking a virgin how to fuck. No matter how much they explain, you’ll never learn how to do it without doing it. Over and over and over again.
Anonymous:
That’s the kind of reasoning that consultants are relying on.
The reason $250 is too much to invest with a consultant is simple; their advice isn’t actually worth $250, and it won’t get you any closer (or put you any further away) from selling a script for 250K. At least, that’s my theory.
“The reason $250 is too much to invest with a consultant is simple; their advice isn’t actually worth $250, and it won’t get you any closer (or put you any further away) from selling a script for 250K. At least, that’s my theory.”
But what if it provides personal satisfication? I take tennis lessons and pay a pro once a week. I’m never gonna play at Wimbledon but it’s a good time. I don’t see Jimmy Connors or Tiger Woods telling me to save my money.
Anonymous:
My wife plays competitive tennis too. Great for her physical and mental health. Sports are fun, and they have real benefits for everyone who plays them, professionally or not.
Screenwriting is a job. If you want it to be a hobby, I suppose you’re free to do as you like, but then there’s really no need to pay a consultant. Let’s be honest: people write screenplays in order to become professional screenwriters.
“Let’s be honest: people write screenplays in order to become professional screenwriters.”
I think that’s presumptuous of you to assume and a product of your fat ego that everyone wants to be doing what you do. While lots of people write screenplays and dream of it being a movie, I doubt all who write a script dream of being a pro screnwriter. The people who comment on message boards are probably just a small percentage of those who’ve written scripts and not necessarily an accurate representation of that population as a whole.
There’s probably a lot more dabblers than there are real aspiring pros. I’ll bet tens of thousands of screenplays are written a year that never make it out of the computer. Lots of people are busy with their careers and their families and other activities and write for fun, as a release or for who knows what reason. And if paying a consultant is part of having fun, like paying a tennis or golf pro to give you some help and feedback on your amateur swing, then maybe that’s good enough.
This discussion is now beyond silly.
Anonymous:
HAHAHAH, awesome! It’s my fat ego saying that other people want to be professional screenwriters?
Look, seriously, if this is what the argument has degraded to: that lots of people write screenplays for their own enjoyment and not at all to become professionals, then we’re done here. That’s just frickin’ stupid.
But if someone is honestly writing screenplays for “release” or having fun, then they REALLY don’t need to be paying consultants, do they?
Jesus.
You really are trapped in your own world. And your clueless to the fact that people do lots of things for enjoyment.
For example, there are professional chefs who make a good living cooking around the world. And there are amateur chefs who throw elaborate parties on the weekends when they’re away from their day jobs. Some even take cooking classes and buy cookbooks!
There are professional landscapers who make millions of dollars a year, and decorators and so on and so on, and there are hobbyists who enjoy dabbling in their own yard or helping friends out with paint colors and rearranging furniture. There are people who love to salsa on Friday nights at the Sportsman’s Lodge and even pay for salsa lessons. But they’re not pros. And don’t desire to be pros. There are fisherman who do it for a living and there are those who do it for fun. Lots of these people buy books and magazines for ideas and inspiration and even take classes at the local college or visit message boards to meet like-minded people. They simple want to expand their knowledge.
This is not some alien concept, Craig. This happens everyday, all around the world for all sorts of pasttimes that are also other people’s professions.
It’s mindboggling that who don’t realize that there are many people who simply write because it’s fun and they want to learn more about it, but don’t aspire to move to Hollywood and write for a living.
For instance, my friend is one of the top ranked poker players in the world. He meets lots of people who play poker for fun and even go to Las Vegas and shell out some hard earned money once or twice a year. He doesn’t assume that everyone wants to leave their jobs and play professional poker. Even though he takes it very seriously, he understands that some people do it for fun and relaxation. He’s even been asked to give seminars and write books because there’s a desire for people to get better at their game, whatever the motives.
Maybe you’re so far removed from the fun of writing, maybe it’s become such work for you, a job, that all the joy has been sucked out of it and you can’t possibly imagine people writing just for the sake of writing.
But they do, and it’s sad that you raise your nose to the thought. But you can’t get away from that ego.
Anonymous:
Screenwriting is not a pastime, and NO ONE who pays consultants does it thinking anything other than, “This will get me one step closer to selling my script.”
No one.
Novels? Yes. Short stories? Yes. Poetry, blogging, non-fiction? Yes.
Those literary forms are intended to be enjoyed in the state they are in. Screenplays exist to be made into movies. They are not an end-result, like a cooked meal or a mowed lawn or a dance performance. They are a tool.
No one writes screenplays solely for enjoyment the way that no one draws up blueprints for buildings solely for their enjoyment.
Considering how worked up you’re getting, I have to tell you… I don’t think I’m the one who has ego invested in this argument.
Is all this just a money thing? If Linda Segar didn’t charge writers, would her consultation then be worthwhile for a screenwriter? And if it would be worthwhile, why isn’t it worth paying for?
What about managers? Lots of managers give notes. Just like Segar. Many writers rely on their managers for story notes. Writers get pissed if the manager is slow to turnaround the script or unhappy when the notes are pedestrian. Lots of these managers have never written a screenplay. Many don’t have any IMDB credits.
Why is it OK to take notes from them AND pay them 10% to boot?
You’re hilarious!
“Novels? Yes. Short stories? Yes. Poetry, blogging, non-fiction? Yes.”
Once again, every single form of written expression meets my idea of pasttime, except YOUR form.
So according to you, it’s acceptable for me to write a novel as a pasttime, even though Stephen King thinks that’s ridiculous because novels are meant to be published, read by the masses at the beach and airports and make the bestseller list.
But you say it’s OK. However, because screenplays MUST be turned into films in order for them to have true meaning, nobody on the planet would EVER write a script without the sole purpose of it being produced.
Wow.
Linda Seger is suddenly looking like a fucking genius.
Anonymous:
Hey, if you think so, go pay her!
Anon,
I think screenplays are a little different. It would be like learning to draw up blueprints with no intention of them being used to build something.
I don’t disagree from a purely practical viewpoint, dave. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t people all over the world who write screenplays just for the helluvit. I’m not sure why it’s difficult to agree on such an obvious point.
Dilettantes exist. And while they might be wasting their time according to those posting here, I think many find joy in the futile act of simply expressing themselves through the drama of the screenplay. And when they want feedback simply for their own growth and a pat on the back, but have nowhere to turn, they might look up a script consultant.
Again, I turn to my tennis pro analogy. I have no intention of ever playing professionally. I don’t even play competitively. It’s good exercise and I enjoy learning about the sport, and I pay someone for the guidance. I don’t think any professional athlete would find my efforts a waste of time or mock me. But there seems to be a specific kind of snobbery amongst professional writers or Craig Mazin. As if their profession is so sacrosant that it cannot be dabbled in. One must be motivated by money and professionalism or nothing else.
Since there seem to be hundreds of script consultants popping up all the time and no shortage of customers – and clearly the majority of aspiring writers (as represented here) don’t utilize (and even abhor) these kinds of services – a good portion of the customer base must be made up the kind of people to which I refer.
Urg, my head hurts, but I can testify, expensive champagne is A LOT better that the cheaper variety.
This is now going to have to be about the damage they’re doing. Which is going to involve using my brain, which I was hoping not to have to do this weekend. So, please, be nice.
As Craig mentioned, the bait is the access to industry. If they took that shining light off their homepages they wouldn’t have any customers.
They’ve got them believing that they’ll get them where they want to go, it’s like cultism, they’ve bought into these consultant’s publicity.
So saying they’re fraudsters, that shakes their clients foundations. That’s just going to put pressure on the hostage syndrome they’ve now got. So all arguments with clients are useless. And some of these clients may have been their victims for years. I mean, that’s now like telling the Moonies they’re not going to be rescued by the spaceship afterall. And that’s going to solicit a terrible dread in the bellies of these poor people.
Cos, well, they’ve had their minds messed with.
But not just in psychological terms. Also in technical terms. In terms of damage done to them as writers.
Firstly, I think it needs to be noted that it’s actually very difficult to talk about screenwriting. You’re having to squeeze a multidimensional experience, into a one dimensional description, and this will never fit quite perfectly, like the alien in men in black, trying to fit into a man’s skin.
There are actually some very gifted screenwriters, who, when talking about their work, just sort of utter a few disconnected words, and grunt a bit and make absolutely no sense at all.
A lot of screenwriting is still in the writing.
So, never judge a screenwriter by how they talk about their work, THAT’S for sure.
Hang on, what was I getting at, of yea, the damage.
They’re interfering with these writers time/space continuum.
They’re filling their heads with one dimensional approaches to this multidimensional past time. And in doing so, immediately limiting their capacities. They’re closing the door to real writing and substituting it with false theories.
And, well, that’s just all wrong.
Furthermore, they’re interfering with natural processes. You know, in your early days, most of the time it’s actually best to just move on and write the next script, but these people are being dragged through the mud over an inadequate early script, and being lead to believe this is “writing”, and this will get them a career, whereas left to their own devices, these noobs would have lost interest in that script, and gone on to another, and in doing so, grown and developed as writers.
See. Terrible interference. And damage, because their instinctive growth has been denied.
Peers, industry practitioners, anybody real, would have given them a bit of feedback about this or that, which would have stimulated their thoughts on what they’re doing, and that would have been integrated organically, still in accordance with their own processes, and with them still being captain of their own ship.
But these consultants cut off those processes and replace them with artificial ones.
Anon,
I agree you with for the most part. And in an earlier post I gave a similar analogy to yours. I don’t use consultants, and I agree that there are many charlatans around doing what Craig describes; but I do confess to having read a few books from the library on the subject — and to buying a dvd or 2 on eBay if something intrigued me. The rest I got from reading/covering screenplays. But I’d be lying if I said that the former yielded zero value. So, I do believe that Craig went a little overboard — and some of his defenders softened his stance by reinterpreting his first words.
At this point I gain most pleasure from writing stuff and shooting it myself. I’m my own writer/director/editor/producer/distributor. With video cams, computers and the internet, there’s nothing to stop you. And it’s gratifying if people (beyond family and friends) respond favorably to my creations. But it’s also gratifying when I see how far I’ve come from my first scripts and short films. And — perish the thought — I have learned a thing or two from people who don’t pass Craig’s test of credibility. Did Joseph Campbell write a hit movie? Nope. But Craig found value in some stuff he’s written, right? I had to educate myself on the cheap — but if someone would rather pay the freight than extract what they can from free or low cost sources, that’s their prerogative. Maybe they have money to burn on such things, who knows? I’m sure Craig over-pays for a lot things since he’s become a successful screenwriter — but I wouldn’t call him a moron for doing so.
Kinda reminds me of those guys that charge you to teach you how to become a guaranteed millionaire. Then you later see them living out of the back of their car using an electric shaver and toothbrush — paid by your money.
Best thing to do is to take them down with a baseball bat and urinate all over them. Then take your money back, steal theirs as well as their car. You could then sell on the car and make some money that way. Do that enough times and you could become a millionaire.
I’m trying it now and hiding out on the internet. Shhhhh…
And look around, here is a large group of working writers who are all where they are because they developed according to their own processes. They pushed through whatever they had to push through on their own steam.
And that’s the silver bullet.
Having mastery over your own work.
“And that’s the silver bullet.”
And to think I always thought it was a can of Coors Light!
And by the time you get to a development team, you’ve already come a long way.You know who you are and you’re confident about what you write, and the process is really very engaging, but still, you’re the one writing the script, and you’ve got the bull by the horns.
So when you’re dealing with these development people, you’re seeing the pathways between the trees, it’s put into perspective, and chewed up according to your own processes.
But put a shaky noob in a development situation and they’re just going to be sinking in mud.
It’s the wrong process at the wrong time. Again, artificial.
You’ll get put into development when you’re ready. It’s the industry’s natural progression.
But you have to do your own ground work, or you’ll have nothing to stand on.
And the kooky thing about all this is that these consultants are all readers. Yea, right, like readers should tell writers how to write.
pff, readers gone mad.
I know for a fact Connie is Maralyn.
ooooooooooo Connie is maralyn ….. oooooooooooo
Like anyone cares.
Maybe it’s just too difficult making a living as a reader. It’s piece work, you’ll never make more than so much, there’s a ceiling.
This cyber drift net that a website creates, just lets them fall in. You can even contract out the reading and not even have to work anymore.
Just….. lie around. Counting pennies.
Theee Maralyn?!?
“have you noticed that the best posts also just happen to be the professional writers with credits to their name?”
No.
Well, you can discredit me to your hearts content, because the fact of the matter is, that there are a large number of working writers speaking out against these consultants, and that’s all that matters.
You’re just upset because I went into the logistics of the damage.
@Craig,
Thank you so much for taking the time to write his wonderful article. I am very grateful and I feel encouraged to follow your advice, as I had my doubts about the benefit of paying for a consultant to read my script.
I invested $50 to get my script critiqued and it was a good critic. The guy picked up on the weaknesses I myself recognized in my script. So what? What do I do now to improve my script? Pay $250, that’s what.
I didn’t pay the $250. I handed my script to a friend who is a good writer. for $0 I got the best input ever! He didn’t tell me what was wrong. He gave me ideas and possible scenarios.
My rewrite is all the better. I will turn to this friend anytime I need another set of eyes. I guess this business is about nurturing and building relationships. And let’s not forget, writing, writing and writing.
But now I need help. I have a dark comedy and a thriller. How do I get an agent?
The more I read on this stuff, the more confused I become. Please help!!!
I thought Danny presented a good argument for the service he offers.
Which bit in particular, you mean the bit about Jeff being Lord of the Flies, or about you not being qualified to teach.
Or are you just trying to keep this going?
They all have good arguments for their services, because they’re speaking to an audience who feels they’re at a dead end. And because they believe their own publicity.
My early scripts didn’t even look like scripts. Then I progressed onto sketchpads, that worked wonders. I could just scribble what I wanted for each page, stuck in Polaroids, added possibilities around the page, early notes glued in.
If Danny had looked at my early work he would have told me to take up paining. Or teach kindergarten.
Your early work tells you nothing about who you are as a screenwriter.
It’s the cloud of unknowing, you have to refine it, and focus in on it as you grow.
The first feature I wrote out of film school didn’t have a story. Just … didn’t. Not a conventional narrative anyway, not even close, sequences of events, leading to something else happening…overlooked whether it made much sense or not…tra la la la la, I’m having fun…
And I sent it to Wim Wenders.
I rang his secretary six months later and she said he had a pile of scripts next to his desk that he will never read. She said it’s probably in that.
If Danny had got hold of it he would have told me to rewrite it with a story.
And he would have been wrong. It just was what it was. An early exploration in the writing of a feature.
Then I started co-writing.
Which I also wouldn’t have done if I’d got caught up with Danny.
I have to say, and I’ve said this many times, co-writing is a great way to develop as a writer.
And then I put aside the screenwriting, just seemed like it was dragging on and not getting anywhere, I thought, meh, this is a mugs game, and I ran off to the theater and had a ball for a few years writing plays instead.
Danny would have never recommended doing that. He would have lured me into giving him money to help me realize my screenwriting potential.
But looking back, that time in the theater was phenomenal for my development, complete structural freedom, and uninhibited expression.
Just wild.
You can’t consciously predict the path anyone needs to take. A writer’s own instincts take them there.
And don’t ever be afraid of giving up or walking away from it. It calls you back. Sometimes drags you back, kicking and screaming.
The dannys are only going to clutter things up and hold you back. Possibly cause you to be lost forever.
At the turn of last century, I should say the late 1900′s, the fashionable way to hunt African wildlife was to dig a really big deep hole. REALLY big hole. Cover it up with loose matter, and then everything that walked past, just fell in.
They’d catch everything that way.
Lions, elephants, monkeys, zebra, the lot.
And then once a week they’d go to the hole in the ground, lions would have eaten the zebra, and elephants would have broken their legs, but that didn’t matter for the purpose of taking their ivory. And whatever was still alive was shot and skinned.
Pretty clever rort.
I mean, they just had to go visit the hole in the ground once a week.
That’s what these websites make me think of.
If the writing is driving you nuts, if you’re at a dead end, don’t be afraid of doing something else for a while.
Acting, directing, make a short, whatever your heart desires. Even documentary film making will teach you a lot about storytelling.
Just be creatively active. One thing leads to another, and just always be collaborating in some way.
Don’t hang around festering, or looking for answers from dannys.
Cos you’ll end up skinned.
I laugh at all the people here who are ripping on Craig. I don’t know the guy, but it’s obvious he’s doing and not talking about it. IMO that’s what separates the real screenwriters from the phonies. You can talk about screenwriting until you’re blue in the face, but at the end of the day you either sit down daily and use your talents to knock out product, or you’re just another armchair QB or procrastinator.
Anyone who has talent in this business is working and too busy to charge ridiculous sums of money to scam people. The good ones pass their knowledge on for free.
When Charles Barkley was a rookie, someone gave him this advice: “When you make it to the penthouse, don’t forget to send the elevator down for the young guys.”. Truer words were never spoken.
And the another aspect that hasn’t been covered is the whole perspective thing.
These consultants advise you by assuming they’re speaking on the behalf of a potential producer.
Yet, they’ve never produced a film. They’ve never bought a script,. or sold one.
So what causes them to believe they speak on the behalf of a producer?
I mean, that’s a huge assumption.
They’re not even in anyone’s credits.
All of the development people I’ve worked with were happy to list their credits. It was never just some obscure “oh, I’ve worked in development with studios”. Which films, what was your role in development? Why didn’t they put you in the credits?
Were you an unpaid intern?
What?
To take the leap into assuming to know what a producer wants, and how they want it developed is the delusional aspect.
And so randomly, any writer, at any stage of their development, for any genre, that’s just madness.
Even producers, successful producers, wouldn’t claim to know so randomly what just any writer with any script should be doing to develop it.
They’d be too worried about giving the wrong advice.
The only films producers know how to develop are the films they want to make.
These consultants don’t speak for anyone.
And finally, because I am actually running out of ink for this, there is a real possibility that these people could completely destroy a script that otherwise may have sold for the million bucks you were dreaming of.
They don’t know what will sell, nobody does. They just “imagine” they do.
These consultants could cost you a lot more than 50 bucks.
They could trash the one script that may have otherwise helped you break in.
Don’t let them anywhere near it.
If you’re looking for feedback, and you just can’t find any from peers or from the industry, you can get feedback from other writers at zoetrope.
What else is there, oh yeah, great that you’ve taken a stand and done something about this.
Bravo.
Turman,
I’m withholding praise on Danny and his service until I hear more information. I went to his website and it didn’t seem dissimilar to the others. He dangled the carrot of his insider contacts if he gives the script a “recommend,” but his insider contacts are vague. He listed WME as one of his insider contacts and I asked on here to be more specific so I can vet the contact. Danny might have the ear of an agent there, and I’d like to confirm that. He claims to be more like Simon Cowell because he gives tough notes. His bio says he was director of development at Clifford Werber Productions, a place I hadn’t heard of before seeing it on his bio. That’s not an indictment at all… I’m sure Clifford Werber is great, but so far, Clifford Werber is not IMAGINE, and being his director of development for a short time isn’t enough, in my mind, to claim you have the “executive perspective.” People outside of Hollywood don’t realize that being the “director of development” at a tiny production company can be a job right out of college given to someone who worked a desk for a year as an intern. Again, I’m not saying this is the case for Danny, but I just think it should be put into perspective. Getting ranked as a Top 15 Consultant by a magazine who relies on advertising from consultants is another thing he touts on his site. He also wrote an e-book, which I assume means he self-published his book.
All this said, Danny seems like a good guy. I like his picture and I like that he came on here taking umbrage to the anti-consultant rant. But I didn’t see anything on his website to differentiate him from every other consultant (and I could have guessed what things would be on his website)… until he gives me more information, I’m going to agree with Craig and recommend that as an aspiring screenwriter — not a dilettante — that you save your money.
Uh-oh. Screenwriting from Iowa weighs in on Craig’s post. It’s spreading.
http://screenwritingfromiowa.wordpress.com/2010/10/31/the-angry-screenwriters/
(kinda makes the same point many have made here — good writer doesn’t mean good teacher; bad writer doesn’t mean bad teacher)
dave:
All I read there was a very sensitive personal defense, disguised mostly as a personal attack on me. I’m from a shitty place (Staten Island), I went to a snobby school (Princeton) and my movies suck (Rotten Tomatoes).
Look, it’s natural that people who teach screenwriting are going to insist that teaching screenwriting is valuable. And frankly, there must be SOMEONE good at it out there.
But mostly, the criticism seems to be of the “screw you, I matter!” variety, coupled closely with the “AND YOU SUCK!” addendum.
Uh huh. Okay, very good. But are any of your students actually making it? Because yes, unbelievably, my motivation is pure (and simple). Spending more than a few bucks for a book or two (see, I’m flexible) is a WASTE OF MONEY. You do not NEED any of this other crap. If you have the ability to write in this business, you will write in this business, no matter how many classes you DON’T take. If you don’t, you won’t…and I don’t care how many classes you DO take.
The reason there are so few teachers who have actually done the job of screenwriting? No, it’s not because of this silly “teaching and doing are two separate disciplines” thing. It’s because most people who make it in this business do not give a shit about helping anyone else.
There. I said it. Most people in this business are far too concerned about themselves, their career, their struggles, their fears…why the hell should they waste their time helping you? Why should they appear anything less than the perfectly aloof professional?
For whatever stupid reason, I do care about helping other writers. So does John August.
Maybe one day we’ll write books.
But no goddamn seminars!
Craig’s platform feels like a way to isolate those who don’t have credits and elevate those, like himself, who do.
It’s an inner monologue that sounds something like: “Why would these idiots pay money to teachers who have never been professionals in the field, when I’m offering my professional words of wisdom here free of charge?”
Maybe that’s a legitmate question. But I have a cousin who passed the California bar without going to law school, and he looks down at any lawyer who spends a dime attending law school, which is almost every lawyer. He believes that those who need school to pass the bar aren’t “natural lawyers,” which is ridiculous. It’s a stance that reminds me a bit of Craig’s here.
Craig’s general condemnation of teaching seems limited in thought and scope. Some of our greatest artists and filmmakers have studied their craft from unknown teachers without IMDB credits and have given them lofty praise as well.
It’s a fact to say that one doesn’t need to takes classes or read books or go to film school or hire a consultant to be successful in show business. But it doesn’t mean it’s bad or lazy or whatever Craig might be suggesting here.
Craig doesn’t support it, but people like Martin Scorcese, George Lucas, Tom Hanks, Doug Wright, Jack Nicholson and thousands of other great artists do. I think Craig might even be in the minority.
Anonymous:
Rather than guess, I’ll just tell you the big secret.
I don’t need to “elevate myself.” And I’m not trying to isolate people without credits. I’m trying to protect them from wasting their money. Is that too generous to believe?
Well, welcome to the internet, I suppose. The magical place where Martin Scorsese wouldn’t have made it without paying someone for notes…
What about someone like the popular Pilar Alessandra, who worked in the business for many years as a story analyst and now teaches and consults? Is she someone worthy of charging a fee?
“Pilar jump-started her career in film as a script reader for Amblin Entertainment. With the formation of DreamWorks, she became Senior Story Analyst and a reader liaison between the studio and Robert Zemeckis’s company, ImageMovers. Her expert script analysis was also sought out by The Robert Evans Company, Cineville Entertainment, Handprint Entertainment and Saturday Night Live Studios, and work at Interscope Communications led her to a position as Senior Story Analyst for Scott Kroopf’s production company Radar Pictures.”
Rant. Am I ranting?
It’s an industry that has sprung up with the internet.Before the internet, the only seminars around were by people who worked in the industry in a writing capacity. The sort of seminar that Bill does. Three day workshop sort of thing.
But these web services are purely exploitational. These people must have thousands of scripts pass through their inboxes, they see a hundred times more scrips per year than any screenwriting lecturer at any institution, yet not one of them can give the title of a film that was released by one of their students.
Screenwriting lecturers can give hundreds of titles.
Why is that. How can that be.
It’s just not a learning environment. They’re spoonfeeding them this “how to” nonsense.
Why aren’t we hearing from writers who feel they’ve benefited through to getting work or making a sale.
Not one single writer has come here to say they were so very much helped by any of this, and that they’re now gainfully employed. Not one, out of the thousands.
Craig’s instincts about this are spot on.
Which agencies are happy to say they read the “recommends” by these consultants. Any?
Writers are too busy to deal with any of this, and it’s all so recent, a lot may not be sure enough to speak out, and then there was the strike, and the global financial crisis, and work is hard to get, who can spend time worrying what some other, less fortunate schmuck is doing to try to get ahead.
But this issue of consultants is an important one. It’s a very rapidly growing industry. Booming. And only working writers can deal with it, they’re the only ones noobs will listen to, as per the first comment posted here.
And angry. Of course they’re angry. I’m angry too. They’ve turned this complex and magical craft, the most wonderous artform ever conceived, into a Tupperware party.
Sorry I havent replied sooner, but this thread made me dizzy and I needed some time away. Now, I’m not going to reply any longer on Connie/Maralyn’s rants about me – as she has no idea who I am, has never met me and knows nothing about me or my business. Except to say that by her own admission, back when she “broke in,” it was a different business. There weren’t as many people trying to be screenwriters, you could still sell a pitch as an unknown, and the internet wasn’t launching more stars than sundance. Good is no longer good enough. And when she submitted her script to Wim Wenders, wouldn’t it have been smart to get feedback on it before she humiliated herself? Instead, she thought she was good enough – she THOUGHT her script was ready. And because she was that arrogant and didn’t seek outside opinions, she closed a door to someone who would have otherwise read her stuff. I think that’s exactly the reason (good) consultants are important. And, just to address her insinuation, I HAVE suggested that a few of my clients seek co-writers – I think that’s a great way sometimes to make a script better and some people need more help than I can give. I’m not arrogant enough to say that I can make everything better – sometimes no one can.
But I’d like to say that if Connie thinks seeing a qualified consultant who has worked in the industry is dangerous, imagine how dangerous it is to give your script to a bunch of unproduced, unrepresented, fellow amateur writers for feedback and suggestions like on Triggerstreet, Zoetrope or your own writers group. What point does that serve? Why would you only want to get PEER feedback, when your peers are in no better position than YOU? That’s what I call the Blind Leading the Blind.
I’m happy to defend my bio or my credentials to anyone who would like. Did I work for Imagine or Weinstein? No. I worked for 3 different production companies (one run by a writer/director, two by producers) as their Director of Development (after working my way up). I have both set up and sold scripts at the companies I’ve worked at, as well as optioned many. I’m happy to list my credits for you, Connie. Give me a call, we’ll do lunch. I’ll wear a cup.
And follow me for a second – but I think consultants can SAVE writers money. With the cost of pitchfests, conferences, contests, online query sites, etc – writers who have no other way of breaking in, could be spending THOUSANDS on trying to peddle scripts that aren’t ready yet. Wouldn’t it behoove them to spend $150 to get a constructive professional opinion that will not only help their script, but tell them they shouldn’t be spending that kind of money yet because they’re not ready?
Quickly, to Anonymous Post #185 – The reason I dont attach myself to scripts I work on as a consultant is becuase that is a very ethically gray area. Producers are not allowed to (or certainly shouldnt) be paid by writers for their services. So, if I were to ever attach myself to one of the projects I’ve consulted on, I would give the money back to my client that they paid for notes. I feel that’s only right. But, to be honest, I havent had any scripts yet that I felt SO passionately about that I’d want to attach myself. I hope one day it happens – id be happy to refund the $150 to get a project I truly love. The scripts I AM attached to produce did not come from my consulting company.
To Geo, I would never say my clients COULDN’T have won or broken in or sold their scripts without me – they all had talent – that’s why those things happened. But, the fact remains, I helped them. Whether I just expedited the process or gave them an outlook on their script that helped change their vision for the better, it helped.
And to Craig, I appreciate your opinion, I just don’t think you’re able to look at the issue from a different point of view – the POV of a writer who didn’t go to film school, has no connections or contacts, no agent, no referrals, no friends who write, and doesn’t live in LA. What would you suppose they do? Though I do agree – writers who only want to do this as a hobby or therapy – don’t need to hire a consultant. Just be happy doing what makes you happy. Consultants are for those who want to take it to the next level.
Anonymous:
No.
I don’t know Pilar, but one of my office mates in Pasadena does the exact same thing. Reads scripts and gives notes for Dreamworks. He doesn’t pretend that this qualifies him to start charging aspiring screenwriters.
If anything, I think he has the exact right perspective about what that job is. It’s not a bad job. It’s a perfectly good job. But it doesn’t make you a “story expert”.
The only thing that makes you a story expert is honest-to-goodness story expertise. While there are always exceptions that prove the rules, people who are really, really good at analyzing and improving stories are either:
It’s not enough to read scripts and do coverage for a whole bunch of companies. Like I said, perfectly good gig, but there are a ton of people doing it, and they all have the same credentials.
Danny:
You wrote:
Well, I didn’t go to film school. And I had no connections, no agent, no referrals, no friends who wrote and I didn’t live in L.A.
So maybe…..juuuuuuust maybe…..I actually do know what I’m talking about?
I think this is pertinent
http://www.wordplayer.com/forums/scriptsarc09/index.cgi?read=136662
Very few screenwriters come out of film school. Very few producers too.
Everyone who goes to film school wants to direct. That’s why they go there. I found out at film school that I didn’t want to direct.
There is no good better best education for writers. No education at all most of the time, just a passion for film that causes them to find whatever resources they have to find to write screen stories.
Some come from acting, theater, novels, there is no such thing as an ideal or even common screenwriting background.
But I want to know why it’s always readers who become consultants. Why readers?
Why don’t directors become consultants, or producers, or anyone else who works in a key creative role, why always readers.
What are the processes that cause readers to think they can tell writers how to write?
Anyone can watch a film and think, I would have done it this way or that way, but what causes them to make the leap into thinking they understand the writing process so intimately, that they can tell writers how to write.
Do they read so many scripts that they think they see a pattern and get struck by some devine light and think, hey, I’ve got the solution for this.
And then take it some weird step forward into getting writers to pay them for their thoughts, thinking they’re doing them a favor?
Well, that’s just loopy.
Or did they see someone else’s website and think, hey, I’ve got the same “reading credentials ” as them, I can do what they do.
Only writers know how to write.
Only….. writers.
This thing keeps going! Craig, how many other conversations have you had here that have inspired this much passion and interest?
From what I can tell I think a lot of what people are reacting to, Craig, was your certainty. I happen to agree with the general notion of what you’re saying (I don’t see much use in most consultants as they’re not very good at actually making people better writers), but your passion (polite word) about it and that you left so little room for exceptions was a little off-putting. Whether it was intended it or not, there was the feeling of “we’re the only true experts, follow us and not them.” I am sure it wasn’t intended, but it did have the cultish feel to it. Surely, there are some good consultants out there, aren’t there? None? At all?
One of the things I find icky about all the pros here is their complete definitiveness in their statements. As if they’re giving verdicts rather than opinions and anyone not as successful as them is an idiot.
Connie, do you want to walk back the notion that it’s immoral to ever take money from an aspiring writer? That seems more than a bit extreme to me. Saying that a teacher takes money from an institution and not the writers seems silly to me since its the writers paying the institution. Do you really want to be that dogmatic about this?
Craig, please trust me when I tell you that there is a very big difference in writing posts on a blog and traveling to festivals where you’re treated like King of the Prom and working directly with writers, actually reading their scripts, giving detailed notes aimed and not just making their script better but making them better writers as well. It’s a grueling, time-consuming business (it gets easier the further along the writer is). I agree it’s pretty shameful to do this for money when you’re not very good at it, but it’s a lot easier to say that this should always be done for free when you’re already pretty well-off.
Please don’t think I am undervaluing your site or others like it. I’m not. It’s great free advice and an amazing resource. Thank you for all your efforts. But by its nature it’s generalized and cannot replace one-on-one tutoring. It just can’t. But yes, yes, and yes, it is very difficult to find people that are good at it and charge the appropriate price for their services.
Personally, I think a better discussion would be how to know if your consultant (or anyone giving you notes) is helping or hurting?
And as far as I’m concerned, Danny seems like an okay guy to me. If he sleeps at night thinking he feels like he’s offering a good service and his clients agree, what business is it of mine?
“But I want to know why it’s always readers who become consultants. Why readers? Why don’t directors become consultants, or producers, or anyone else who works in a key creative role, why always readers. What are the processes that cause readers to think they can tell writers how to write?”
I’m stepping out of line here because I don’t read for a living or consult. But consulting seems like a natural extension of reading because readers ARE consultants to a degree. They are paid to provide their opinion on the worthiness of screenplays. If a company like Dreamworks trusts a reader to determine the life or death of a script, it makes sense that a writer might also. Readers often go on to become creative executives and development executives and then production chiefs. They give notes on screenplays in development and in production.
Why doesn’t a director consult with screenwriters? Because he directs. It’s a different area of expertise. It’s not a natural extension. They don’t read and critique scripts for a living, they direct films.
So, I think it makes plenty of sense as to why readers would consult. Doesn’t mean they’re good at it or worthy of collecting money.
Now, I would like to address Derek’s posts, as I appreciate you actually checked out the site and you raise good questions. I dont want to turn this into any kind of advertisement, but I want to answer your questions.
First, just to get it out of the way, the WME contact on my site is Mike Esola – feel free to ask him if he knows me, Derek. And I’m happy to give you names of all of the contacts listed on my site. I dont list their individual names on my website because some writers will take advantage of that. But Derek, email me and I’m happy to give those to you. Unlike other consultants who are anonymous or who don’t actually know people – they just send a form letter or cold call these companies – my contacts are all friends of mine or colleagues I’ve worked with who know I wont send them crap. And my “Hwood Connection” service is FREE – and its for any script that gets a recommend. They will have their query letter and logline sent to those companies – and then it’s in their hands. It’s a way for some writers to get read or reach certain companies they would not otherwise have access to. Simple as that.
And to your point – yes, some execs get a fancy title right out of college (which drives me nuts). I worked my way up from Assistant to Creative Exec to DOD. And it didn’t take me a year either. I’ve been doing this for 8 years now. Some might say that’s not THAT long – but do you really want to get advice from someone whose been a cynical exec for 30 years? If you want an antiquated opinion – That’s what Syd Field and McKee are for. My first company (run by a writer/director with over 25 credits) had a deal with Screen Gems and Top Cow Comics and we were doing lower budget studio movies, my second company had a deal with WB and then Summit. And my third company had a deal with Millennum. Have I worked at A-List companies? No, maybe not. But that doesn’t mean I’m not good at what I do.
On the recommendation system, every company is different. I can only speak for Myself. When coming up with a grade, I answer 3 basic questions for a script toget a recommend. 1. Could I sell this? Is there something marketable about it? Is it commercial? 2. Could this win a Screenwriting Contest? 3. Is this a good enough writing sample that it couldpossibly get the writer meetings around town, a manager, or garner them other work?
If I can answer at least ONE of these with a resounding YES, then the script will probably get a recommend. If the script -the writing or the story, etc – has some great potential, but it’s just not there yet, it would get a CONSIDER. And all others get passes. But the X-Factor for me when giving a grade – is putting my Exec hat back on and asking myself the question “Would I give this to my boss with my recommendation?” And if the answer is no, then it doesnt get a recommend because that would be doing a disservice to the writer.
I don’t believe that repeat business comes with giving out recommends like Halloween candy – I think repeat business comes from giving tough, constructive, helpful notes and by being honest. Yes, there are companies out there who give recommends when they aren’t deserved – I’m not defending them. I can only defend myself and my company, but through that hopefully show that there are SOME consultants out there that are doing a noble service (even though, yes, we charge for it).
My prices vary by service, but as you can see on my site, the basic notes services (1-2pg synopsis, logline, grade sheet and 3-4 pgs of notes) is $145. More extensive notes (7-9 pgs) is $250. And so on. And since you asked what makes me different…I think it’s largely about perspective. I have a screenwriting background, but I am not a screenwriter (that is to say, I have not sold a script or made my living as one). But as I said, when you’re submitting your script to the town – you’re not sending it to other WRITERS. You’re sending it to executives, so why not get feedback from one before you do? The other thing that makes me different is – it’s ME. I don’t farm out your scripts and I dont do this anonymously (clearly). You wont get initials or a secret bio – you’re going to deal directly with me. And I wasn’t just a “reader” who did “coverage” – i was an executive who did NOTES. And there is a difference. I’ve built my brand on being the No Bullshit Guy. I write (or have written) columns for Business of Show Institute, Script Magazine, Virtual Pitchfest, Writers Store, Moviebytes, and have been published before. Yes, my E-Book was self-published by choice and is now being sold at the writers store (my actual book will hopefully be published next year by a real publisher).
And on the CS Mag ranking – they can confirm it for you – I’ve never advertised in any publication. I’ve never even written for them. I do teach at their Expo event, but so do 40 other people, so they have no reason to lie for me.
I dont want to sound like im being defensive..though I guess I am. I understand that there are SOME writers out there who think that because they never used a consultant, no one should have to. That since they learned on their own, everyone can. And that charging for notes somehow denegrates the creative process. And there are too many sharks out there who charge too much for nothing, so writers are better off staying away from us completely. And no argument will sway those writers otherwise – I accept that. Fine. I’m just asking that you do your research first – not everyone is the same. Not everyone is Seger (remember – the original point of this blog?). And not everyone has to be a million dollar screenwriter to give good, helpful advice. And stop telling writers not to do something that might actually help THEM, even if it didn’t help YOU. Derek, Craig, or anyone else – if you’d like more info, please feel free to contact me. My email’s on my website.
Tom Vaughan:
That’s a reasonable criticism, but I do feel quite definite about this. Of course there’s a difference between what I do and what a consultant does.
On the other hand, I just don’t believe there’s a value to what they do. It’s hard work, and it’s time consuming, but is it effective? I say it’s not. I could couch this opinion in slightly less definite way, but in the end that’s just a question of style, rather than substance.
I’m not questioning Danny’s humanity or morality. I’m questioning the value of the service he provides in exchange for money.
Which films have we seen that you provided NOTES for?
And yes, I think it’s immoral to take money from writers.
Nasty.
In particular as randomly as you do. You’ll take anyone’s money. Film schools won’t, they’ll only take your money if you demonstrate strong aptitude and drive.
And again, these are individuals without qualifications, taking money from individuals, without any prerequisites, with the lure of industry access.
And screenwriting lecturers are employed by a panel of educators, these consultants aren’t validated by anyone.
It’s a freakin rort.
There’s a real film industry out there, go work in that. If you’re so good at developing and knowing what sells, be a manager.
But you wouldn’t, because you couldn’t.
Wow! Connie really is Maralyn!
Writers are much better off being developed by managers. They’ve got a vested interest, which is their own bread and butter, raised purely through selling your script and your abilities. It’s a real collaboration. And they won’t take you on unless they think there’s a chance you’ll contribute to that. They’re the real developers. They REALLY want you to succeed.
So, even if you get yourself the crappiest manager on the planet, you’ll still be miles ahead of paying a “consultant”.
Craig,
I think that’s fair enough. I do think much of the discussion might be style over substance. The more I think about it though the more I think your style shouldn’t matter much as the consultant should have a pretty big burden of proof anyway. If they really are worth what they charge your words aren’t going to matter one way or the other, and if it keeps a few people from wasting their money on someone who has no business consulting then all the better. (Though push back should obviously be expected.)
Connie, you may not realize it but you are essentially walking back your statement. Now it’s limited to those who aren’t qualified, taking from anyone and promising access that they can’t deliver. I think it’s safe to say we would all consider taking money under those circumstances immoral.
We can certainly both agree on that.
Of course writers are better off being developed by managers – I’m not saying otherwise. IF those managers are actually good. There are a couple managers and agents who use me because they just aren’t good at notes. But what about the 97% of writers who cant get managers because they’re not ready yet? Or they are still learning?
Consultants don’t have as MUCH of a vested interest as managers, but we do have one. Having a client who sells a script we’ve worked on (or wins a contest, etc) helps us. Not monetarily, but reputation wise.
If consultants really were immoral (and there are a few), we would insist that we WERE made producers on any of our clients works if they sell. THAT is wrong. We want you to succeed- we have no reason NOT to. We’re just another, different, voice in your corner.
Danny is discrediting everyone in the industry. Cult leaders do that too, they convince members that they can’t even trust their own friends and family.
The ones that can’t get managers should be developing with their peers, and getting industry feedback. All of that is real.
And he mentions he’s not here to advertise, no one was accusing him of that, but come to think of it, that is actually what he’s doing.
Which films did you provide notes for? Why do you refuse to answer that.
They were just some crappy films that no one has ever heard of, weren’t they.
You’re the one wanting to be paid by us.
So, which films have you worked on?
Here, I’ll show you how to do it, two of the editors I’ve worked with have credits in I,Robot, and Metal Skin.
See, easy.
What are yours?
Connie,
I’m not catching the same drift you are about Danny. I think he has handled himself well under uncomfortable circumstances.
These notes he’s given are the highlight of his credentials, so, why aren’t we allowed to know which films they were?
Oy, Connie. You seem to be promoting yourself as an authority for writers trying to break in, telling them what they SHOULD and SHOULDN’T do just as much as I am…so I’d love to know EVERY single thing you’ve ever done in your life. Ready? Go…
I’ve given enough of my bio on here – which I didn’t need to do. And the rest of it can be found on my site. Which – I havent even LISTED here because I’m not here to advertise. I’m here to share an opposing view.
But if you’d like just a Few of the produced movies I’ve helped develop….here you go…if for no other reason than to shut you up. I’m not saying they were all FANTASTIC movies or blockbusters…but to be fair, none of Craig’s movies were friggin’ shakespeare either(no offense).
The Covenant 8 MM2 Vampires: The Turning Sydney White Just Add Water
And those are just a few of the ones that have gotten made. As you probably know, development execs give notes on DOZENS of scripts that unfortunately never actually get made. But were developed for years. I had a bigger budget movie at UA/MGM that I set up – im sure you could guess the story on that one. And one at ABC Family that got killed in the Strike.
Now, I’m sure Connie will start tearing apart how most of the movies I’ve worked on weren’t hugely successful, weren’t due to my notes, and don’t prove anything. Fine. But look at how many million dollar screenwriters turn out complete CRAP. So, im not sure straight credits is the best way to value a consultant. Judge me on the notes I give you. How can you judge the validity of a profession or the information you might get from it, if you’ve never tried it?
Now, I’m done commenting for the day because I have a Halloween Party to attend. Derek, I look forward to hearing your response. Thank you Tom and Turman for your comments. Enjoy the holiday everyone…Connie…thanks for making my weekend insanely, frustratingly interesting.
See, now he’s attacking Craig’s credentials. Craig WROTE his films, he didn’t just “give notes”.
And, a large audience saw them and enjoyed them, can’t get better credentials than that.
And when you say “not hugely successful”, I google the title you’ve given and it brings up something that looks arabic. Did it have a theatrical release?
But, at least you’ve admitted that your clients can’t get a manager, so, you’re admitting to taking money from people who are vulnerable.
and, well, I’m not charging anybody anything. They feel more free to take it or leave it than they do when they’re paying.
Connie, there is no pleasing you. So I’m not going to try. I realized the titles printed without commas -sorry – but if you have a brain, you can figure them out. Some had theatrical releaes, some didn’t.
And by your logic, any hack writer who gets enough people to see his movie is now trained and educated enough to teach other writers and give notes on their scripts? That’s ridiculous. Please NOTE – I’m not speaking directly of Craig or his talents or abilities or credits. I’m saying in general, by your logic, someone writes a piece of shit script, it miraculously gets made by a studio, and it makes money becuase the American Viewing Public like bright shiny things that go boom and 90 minutes of dick and fart jokes and all of a sudden THAT guy is credentialed enough to give writers NOTES? Are you serious? You have just lost ALL credibility in my book. Not that you really had any to begin with…
Danny,
You seem like a really nice guy so I’m conflicted. I checked with Mike Esola and he said as much. He didn’t sound like he was waiting on the edge of his seat to hear the next Danny recommendation but he didn’t disparage you. I kind of feel badly because you seem so nice and earnest. I just think you’re in an unnecessary business. I think one of the other interesting things that came up is this: attaching or not attaching yourself as a producer to one of the scripts on which you consult. Let me be clear to everyone who is reading this blog: do not let ANY consultant attach him or herself as producer to a script you wrote. Having producers attached to your script is detrimental, unless that producer is one of the big ones with a studio deal, on the level of Neal Moritz or Lorenzo DiBonaventura or Jerry Bruckheimer or Imagine, and they aren’t in the script consulting business. Or a producer who can get your scripts into the hands of stars, and they aren’t in the script consulting business either. I think Danny would agree with me on this. Danny… my main problem with what you do stands… you have a website that touts things that are only impressive outside of Hollywood. I’m happy to talk with you more directly if you’d like… I’m easy to reach: derek@derekhaas.com.
Connie,
I don’t think it’s fair to say he was attacking Craig’s credits. You were questioning his credits and he anticipated a negative reaction. He was pointing out (more defensively than he had to, I think) that if you were to judge Craig solely on his credits it would be misleading. I am sympathetic to this as I brought the world “Atomic Twister” among some other bad films. I know how much I would hate to have someone obviously hostile to me judge me solely on those credits.
This is a really entertaining thread, though it is sad when certain posters appear to have lost interest: Ray Motess and redhead were really fun to read with the vitriolic, angry, angry rants and attacks (did someone run over their cats or something?)
Craig, way to stay respectful despite what appear to otherwise be a number of trolls and people that are taking this way too personally, attacking you and twisting around what you say to suit their own arguments. That shows more class than I think I would have the patience to show.
I have one question for consultants, Tom & Danny:
When you read a script that simply screams, “This person cannot write and doesn’t have a snowball’s chance in hell in suceeding as a screenwriter,” do you tell them?
Connie’s the only one who makes any sense here.
LaDiDa,
I can’t speak for “consultants”. I do very little of that (4 times, maybe 5?). I teach, which is a different relationship entirely. And I do it on the side, mostly because I enjoy it, though I have needed it for a supplemental income on occasion. My main income is as a screenwriter. I don’t make near the money Craig and some posters here do, but I’ve done it professionally for 15 years and I’m pretty good at. I like to think I am far better writer then my career would suggest, but who knows, it’s a funny business.
I am very frank with my students and keep them abreast with where I think they are. It’s very difficult to tell how much talent they have early on until they kind of understand what exactly their job is. I’ve had one student that I refused to keep teaching because her ambition outweighed her talent. She simply was not a storyteller and she wanted to make a living at it. No one worked harder than her, but there was nothing I could do to help her. How could I take her money and her time?
I do occasionally screen out my students beforehand and sometimes they screen themselves out once they get a taste. While I always let them know that I only represent my own opinion, I am very open about what that opinion is. Not everyone can handle that kind of criticism and they don’t stick around. I’ve had a few potential students who talked too aggressively about making money or winning awards and I didn’t accept them. They’re in it for the wrong reasons and I’m afraid they would see me as a dissapointment even though it would be their expectations that were the problem.
I have a talk with all of my students in the beginning about what I can help them with and what I can’t. I can make them better writers, but I can’t make them good writers. I can help them understand story and structure better, but I can’t teach them talent. If they’re not natural storytellers I can’t turn them into one. I tell them to dig deep to understand and accept that the liklihood of making a living at this is miniscule and if the act of writing and creating doesn’t give them joy in and of itself, they have come to the wrong place. Now would a large check be a good thing? Of course it would, but it can’t be the goal in the environment we work under.
(Honestly, I think development executives would get just as much if not more from my classes as writers)
I am very open with my students about my struggles to earn a living in this industry and hopefully that gives them additional perspective as well.
I can tell you I really struggled with all these questions when I first started teaching. I did it for free at first (I could afford to at the time!) because I felt guilty for taking money. It was only after I fully understood the value of what I was offering that I felt comfortable with it, especially compared to what’s out there in the maketplace. I am offering a service that’s in demand. I’m good at it, I enjoy it and I offer excellent value. Not everyone agrees and that’s fine, but I’m confident in what I do. (I felt better about this thread the more I understood it)
It should also be noted that we have a really good time in class. We have fun. There are some classes where it’s the hardest I laugh all week. That’s what’s hard for some people to understand. It’s not just a financial transaction. It’s often a relationship. It is immensely satifsying to see them get better, and for them to feel and know in their gut that they’re much better, too.
Additionally, I feel like teaching has also made me a much better writer as well. As I said before, I highly recommend it for those who are qualified to do it.
I would sign up for Craig Mazin taught seminar. That could be fun.
I don’t want to piss on Danny. If I felt the need, he’d get a warm yellow stream on his vertex, where the Rogaine people say you should apply their product.
I think Danny is here to defend, in his own name, his own personal integrity, and I can respect that. I get a good vibe from him in general, and I’m not reluctant to say that.
But then Craig’s piece isn’t about tossing Danny to the wolves, even if Danny perceives it that way. I don’t have a problem in general (tho I mentioned some specific problems upstream with Danny’s initial defense) with either Craig or Danny’s pieces.
As I’ve said, I’m not a screenwriting particular. I do have some experience, direct and indirect (tho I’d like to think on the indirect scale with those who know wtf they’re talking about) in the publishing world. This inclines me to Craig’s POV. I have one direct contact in Hollywood, who teaches SW at USC Cinema, some indirect contacts in Hwood thru my wife (a grad of USC Cinema in the early ’80s), and a relative buttload of contacts in the publishing world, tho thru means that anyone could accomplish if they gave a goddamn (I do, for whatever reason, call it idiosyncratic).
I can respect Danny’s position while feeling the need to tell him that he’s fighting a righteously uphill battle against the majority -and deserved– (and, so far as I can tell, he agrees with that point) of practictioners in his recent (18 months) profession.
I also feel the need to point out he did not address my point of what he’ll become in the next 8.5 years if he keeeps on at it.
Writing for publication is a bitch. For the most part, the markets don’t pay a damn, and even in Hwood, where they do (relatively), it is frightful uphill climb.
And if you want to make a quality “adapted” script, then short pieces do better than long (novel) pieces. This is why P.K. Dick has done better than some others. I could go on. Sucks that short pieces are an even more Quixotic profession in the publishing world for the last 50 years or so, but there is is.
Terry probably doesn’t know who I am, but I do know who he is — I not only enjoyed his essay on PM, but my wife and I had a surreal Hwood conversation where we tried to comfort Dr. Engelberg that his resulting product wasn’t as bad as he thought it was. But then my USC Scriptwriting teacher friend was quick to tell me upon relaying that experience that Dr. E. wasn’t Hwood anyway, so it didn’t count as representative of the breed. . . .
Scott–
I could imagine Craig writing a book. . .but a seminar? No way. The conflict between two values would blow his brain –the amount of money/per that would be required to make it worth his time to get over his self-loathing for doing it. The conflict between the two would make it impossible.
As the price went up, so would the self-loathing!
Maybe there are people warping in who aren’t Artful Writer regulars. . . . but there is nothing inconsistent in what Craig has been saying in this thread vs the arc of the site over many years.
Right, or wrong, this thread is vintage Craig and the arc over many years of his beliefs on what it takes to be a successful screenwriter. At least the TV writers believe in long-term arcs, right?
Ultimately, he (Craig) is right. The books, the seminars, the script doctors, hell even this blog, they’re all pretty much useless to the guys who wind up making it. Maybe for the rest of us they all serve as talismans of a sort. Something to buck us up in the darkest hours, but nothing more. Some days a shot in the arm is worth the twenty bucks, but you better learn how to get by that shit on your own too, else you’ll wind up like one of those hoarders.
Heinlein (and some others) said that ultimately the only excuse for being a writer is that you don’t have a choice –you have to write or be miserable. Of course this is the sign of an addictive personality –and therefore one where you must guard against those who wish to take advantage of your addiction for their own gain.
It is entirely possible that both the potential pro and the hopeless tyro both have the addiction. . . .Craig’s point is that the potentional pro doesn’t need it, and the hopeless tyro can’t be benefitted from it to the degree that it will make a difference. If I were to ask Craig a truely interesting question, it would probably be what he thinks he’d be doing today if he *hadn’t* made it.
Craig spoke to my screenwriting class last year, and for a few magic hours was excellent.
“Craig spoke to my screenwriting class last year, and for a few magic hours was excellent.”
Did he remember to tell the students they were all wasting their time spending tuition on a screenwriting class?
Anonymous:
If they hadn’t been in a class taught by John Turman, who has been a professional for a long time, then I would have.
I’m as big of a fan of snark as the next guy, but you have to make sure you make sense.
“class taught by John Turman, who has been a professional for a long time”
Does that make him a good teacher?
Can you or John teach others to write b/c you know how?
Did John just emerge as a pro through talent alone — like you?
Was John taught how to write screenplays for Hollywood?
Can we all just listen to Grady Tripp for a moment:
“Nobody teaches a writer anything. You tell’em what you know. You tell’em to find their voice and stay with it. You tell the ones that have it to keep at it. You tell the ones that don’t have it to keep at it too because that’s the only way they’re gonna get to where they’re going.”
And how about Coach Taylor as well: “This is our mud!”
If I were a young writer (which I am) and sensible (which I am not-proof of this in that I am forgoing responsibilities to write this long post), I would be skeptical of the following:
Unanswerable questions are, in and of themselves, why humans are drawn to expression. If answers were easy to find (i.e. if human reason answered our questions), then there probably wouldn’t be cave paintings, religion, entertainment, or anything fun.
The Screenwriter from Iowa is right to point out that there is probably more than enough screenwriting advice on the Internet. But advice does not write stories or correct stories or even snuff out shit stories.
In the end, these shells for our souls become part of the greater mud. But for writers, our projects are a new mud meant as impressions of the greater mud. As writers, you will build a field, you will man the field and move about it from one end to the other trying to beat an invisible opponent who wishes to make a mess of your mud (David Milch would call this opponent the ego, and I would listen to him on writing before I listened to anyone), and it will rain as you move forth, utterly fettered by everything else in your life (the greater mud). If you want to be a professional mudmaker, then you must let others venture into your mud. Who that will be and how they will treat your mud will be difficult, if not impossible, to control. They may help you defeat your invisible opponent and make your mud a better story. Or they may help your invisible opponent and dirty your mud with clichés, one-dimensional characters, and sappy endings. Whether they pay you, you pay them, or no one pays anyone will not determine how much you must tend to your mud. It is your mud.
In the end, I would ask this: has anyone taught you, for free or for cash, to wade through the greater mud? The mud does not care who gets paid to write, who pays to write, or who suffers for years trying to sell some collection of words meant to convey whatever’s inside the shell. The mud is the mud. If it is God’s gift to you, then be thankful.
Craig, what you said in your post I find it to be true.
Paying thousands for consulting is a bit extreme. But I don’t see anything wrong with books and maybe 150 bucks for a coverage — not everyone has a friend that can dispense notes for free. And if that makes the aspiring writer feel delusionally better, then why not?
But this is what I find HORRIFYING:
“The reason there are so few teachers who have actually done the job of screenwriting? No, it’s not because of this silly “teaching and doing are two separate disciplines” thing. It’s because most people who make it in this business do not give a shit about helping anyone else.
There. I said it. Most people in this business are far too concerned about themselves, their career, their struggles, their fears…why the hell should they waste their time helping you? Why should they appear anything less than the perfectly aloof professional?”
And you know why? Because lots of pros keep peddling the contrary, paying lip service about their magnanimosity, how they like to help aspiring writers, painting themselves as generous creatures that don’t need to protect their piece of the pie.
Well, as I suspected, it was all a lie.
Now, let me ask you this question: if someone loves this biz and can’t be a screenwriter but still would like to live and breath this art and do nothing else, and in order to spend time doing so needs to come up with a way to make a living — which really, that’s all they can make, just paying the rent, not owning a mansion like you do and be invited to lavish locales — and there are people out there willing to part with their money… then why do you care?
Your post sounds like you’re saying only you and the people already in the movie Olympus have the right to make money in this biz.
Not because of WHAT you say, but HOW you say it.
and PS.: Danny, Maralyn lives down under and her only claim to fame are plays at the local church’s theater. So, don’t hold your breath for a luncheon.
more PS.: Craig, I do like you, since the time with your stand about the strike. I’m just a little sad about this latest discovery.
I’m not sure Mazin meant what you think he meant (though I’m not sure either.) I think he meant that working writers have full time jobs… so they’re not usually taking breaks from the profession to teach screenwriting nor open consulting businesses. A lot of working writers I know help aspiring writers… either by speaking at the occasional festival, speaking to classes of screenwriting students — high school, undergrad, and graduate levels, speaking at Writer’s Guild functions, donating to WGA charities, answering questions on blogs and forums, etc, penning articles (gratis) in SCRIPT or CREATIVE SCREENWRITING. There’s a great section on this board’s message board called “Ask a Pro” where dozens of pros answer every question under the sun. Pros I know also help the occasional referral… and have coffee or lunch or breakfast with aspiring writers who know friends of friends or what-not. The problem is we literally get inundated weekly with requests to read scripts and/or meet. Every pro writer I know deals with this. And we feel badly when we have to say “no,” but the truth is, we just can’t say yes to everyone or we wouldn’t get any work done. Speaking for myself, I want every writer to achieve their wildest dreams. Writing a movie that gets made is seriously mind-blowingly great… I hope everyone who sets that as a goal gets to achieve it. If you write a fantastic, novel script… you will.
I get the sense that a lot of people are coming to this discussion eager to create windmills to tilt against by playing conversational origami with comments and notions offered by Craig and others.
My take was that Craig’s original post was simply saying “don’t waste money on non-essential fluffery and then fool yourself into thinking you’re really doing much to help yourself.” Others have read that and come back with “Craig hates teachers! My mom was a teacher! Let’s get him!”
And Derek is right — most all of the pros on this site (Craig very much included) have been ridiculously open and helpful and encouraging… within reason.
dave:
You’re confusing “prerequisite” with “determination.” All good doctors must be smart. Not all smart people are good doctors.
All screenwriting teachers should be, IMO, people who have successfully done the job. Not all people who have successfully done the job will be good teachers.
John is a good teacher because he has done the job AND he has teaching talent.
I don’t know what path John followed to his career.
I don’t know if John was instructed.
whaever:
You get that I was being critical of people who don’t give a shit about helping anyone else, right?
Brett,
I think you’re leaving out one key thing. Craig spelled out very specific credentials that qualify one — in his eyes — to teach the supposedly un-teachable art form.
“Don’t spend a dime unless the seller has worked, is working and is gonna BE working. Multiple credits. A hit or two would be nice. Or recent critical acclaim, like a script on the Black List. A recent spec sale, or a spate of new gigs. Awards and nominations never hurt…”
He’s essentially dismissed anyone else as being able to provide value. He has also dismissed the teacher/doer or coach/player arguments as “silly” despite valid examples to the contrary. And his summation of the S from Iowa guy’s critique of him is:
“But mostly, the criticism seems to be of the “screw you, I matter!” variety, coupled closely with the “AND YOU SUCK!” addendum.”
But doesn’t that line kinda sound like Craig’s approach to anyone who doesn’t match his criteria? I don’t mind that — but his defenders seem to soften his position a bit while pretending that poor Craig is being attacked out of the blue. I think he can handle it; and his style seems to be of a person who solicits — or at least enjoys — the joust.
Craig, yes, I got it was about people that don’t give a shit.
Let me repeat this though: it’s not WHAT you said. I agree with it.
It’s HOW you said it.
Derek, what took me down that path of thought was the “There. I said it.”
To me that implied he’s telling me a truth nobody wants to say out loud.
But, I may be wrong.
“Don’t spend a dime. . . ” does not equal “dismissed anyone else as being able to provide value”.
While he doesn’t seem to generally be a big fan of spending money on it, it seems to me his actual advice is no more than telling someone how to read the Racing Form if they really insist on doing so.
whaever:
If you agree with what I said, I’ll take that.
geo,
I meant he “dismissed anyone else as being able to provide value” for that dime. He made a point of casting a wide net that captures people who have done nothing at all to those who may have done something that he deems not enough — b/c it was accomplished too long ago — or it wasnt’t a hit — or it missed The Black List cut (b/c another writer came up with a clever marketing campaign for his script).
Do you think that people who made the cut know screenwriting much more than those who may have missed b/c of a myriad of possibilities? Do they become experts suddenly if there’s weaker field next time they try to sell something and it works out? How long can a script bounce around before it makes you an expert b/c someone finally decides to make it?
I know someone who submitted a script to a prominent contest one year and didn’t even place. He submitted the same script (no changes — an experiment) to another prominent contest (most would say a more prominent than the first) a year later — and won the whole thing. Is he more qualified to say something about screenwriting now — even though nothing changed regarding his knowledge of craft?
No, I don’t think that, Dave. I think that if anyone is going to spend their money on what is a long shot to have a return that they ought to maximize their opportunity for it to do so, and there are likely reliable indicators to what those factors are.
Your friend is more qualified now to have others listen to him with respect (and congrats to him on his win, btw).
If you’re going to go into business and charge money, then you’ve forfeited the right to get the “participation award” to buck-up your feelings of self-worth. Why should analyzing the worth of a consultant be any different than analyzing the worth of a stock? Because the consultant is selling himself, personally? Well, they better grow a harder shell than that, because the world doesn’t owe them a living. An awful lot of this thread has been expressed in personal terms of “you’re being unfair to me”, when fairness really ought to have zip to do with what is the best return on an investment. That’s what we’re talking about here, right? An investment?
ha, is this still going.
But they’re like baby sea turtles. They have to make that long scamper across the sand before they get to the sea, and most of them die before they even reach the water, they overheat in the sun, or foxes or seagulls get them, then, even if they do swim out, they’re a tasty morsel for sharks and other big fish, only one in two hundred or so survive to adulthood.
Craig was just giving a loud SQUARK, you know, like, doing a bit of an Alec Baldwyn, he put a bit of force into his words, but I think just as a reaction to seeing the babys having their minds messed with.
I mean, the sea turtle babys.
Not that I’m calling anyone a baby.
Or an Alec Baldwin.
Wow! I’m amazed at what a vitriolic slag session this has become. It seems fairly simple to me. If you think that consultants are of value to your work, then find one you like and use them. I worked with Danny after meeting him at a pitch fest in Vancouver and found it to be an illuminating experience. The notes that I received have aided me greatly in my latest re-write. He really helped me to see some areas of my script that I knew (but wasn’t admitting to myself) truly needed work in order to bring this particular story to the level that it deserved to be at. For me, simply having the benefit of another objective perspective and a fresh set of eyes was incredibly helpful.
Conversely, if you don’t consider consulting services to be of value to your work and writing… don’t use them.
That’s right. And the spaceship will arrive at midnight.
Notice how even the testimonials are all the same?
And before you even begin, bla bla bla, go sell a script and then come back here and give a real testimonial.
Trust me. I’m working on it.
Hey, where did you get that emoticon.
The rehab room is off to the right btw
This is why the relationship is so unhealthy. They don’t just pay them, they believe in them and they’re nice to them in the hope that their script will be elevated to the ebola mothership.
If I was having lunch with one of these consultants, and they offered to pay, I think I wouldn’t even be able to hold in the expensive champagne.
Gross.
And I know Bill calls me crazy, but I don’t think anyone is “invaded” by what he teaches. I read some pages of one of his students once, and it was a bit lackluster on account of having been a bit too narrowly focused on structure, or something, but not damaged by the process, I didn’t think.
And with a bit of of prompting, he was fairly easily able to liven it up.
But I don’t think this is the place to discuss the learning of structure, that could get nasty.
And with regards to Pixar, please don’t forget, that they are children’s films, and all have much the same structure, so, it’s been done.
ah ah ah, some other thread, some other time.
We’re talking about these consultants now.
Dickens wrote:
“The majority of writers die in poverty and anonymity, which is why every time one crosses your path, you should dip your hat”.
And when he wrote that, he didn’t mean, take off your hat and hold it out for money.
Now, Danny has called me stoopid, and he has called Craig stoopid, he’s even called the audience stoopid, so, I dread to think what actually really thinks of his CLIENTS.,
Danny’s going to HAVE to become a manger now. Or get a job.
Or, Danny, you take Craig’s advice as well, and go write.
Hey Connie,
Sorry, I wasn’t actually addressing this to solely yourself. Rather, it was for the group.
You’re kidding about the emoticon, right? Colon parenthesis and you’re off to the smiley face races.
Now back to the topic at hand. Honestly, I haven’t read other testimonials on here so can’t attest to them all being the same or not. My comment was purely based on my personal experience. The experience WAS of value to me and I did get something out of it. No spaceships. No Ebola. No rehab room… Just some good advice. It wasn’t expensive at all so I figured I could take a chance on getting some new feedback as I had hit an impasse with the particular script that I was working on and had already received some ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE advice form other working writers. Furthermore, I certainly did not feel ripped off in any way.
I’ve been a working commercial artist for my entire career and have worked with consultants in other industries. Some are good. Some are bad. All industries have their share of snakes, sharks, dicks and douches and if we as artists can’t navigate through that minefield, then perhaps we shouldn’t be in the business at all.
Also, allow me to take umbrage with your insinuation that I am some kind ass kisser and that by riding in on a white horse to Danny’s rescue, that hopefully my script will be elevated to the promised land and reach the vaunted recommend pile? Give me a break and please give other people who are posting on here (who perhaps don’t have the resume that someone like yourself does) the simple respect of believing that we are all capable of making our own informed decisions based on the facts at hand.
Now, I’ve got to go write something that will hopefully, actually sell. I hope you will approve.
I honestly have no idea if that was a typo or if Connie actually believes that Danny should become manger.
I don’t know, it’s just that they seemed to think he was a nice guy, but I don’t know what anyone should be doing.
An honest living, whatever it is.
And that I don’t think new writers are damaged if they have a writer as a teacher.
Maybe a bit warped or something, but not damaged.
At least they know what the teacher has written, so they can keep it all in perspective.
I mean, we all thought our screenwriting lecturer knew NOTHING.
And it was kinda true.
But he never imposed any theories or doctrines onto us, so none of us took offense.
I’ll ring the school, and I’ll find out who’s teaching there now, seeing as he has passed away already, and I’ll see if they’re teaching the same exercises, and I’ll get a list of them and post them.
You can’t be damaged by exercises either.
No, you certainly can’t. Please post them.
MBoland is Danny, right?
I’ve worked as a so-called ‘analyst’ for several script consultants in L.A., and I couldn’t agree with Craig more. And plenty of the writers I gave notes to thanked me for my notes. Most actually think I helped them. So what? These were mostly people who live in places far away from Los Angeles with absolutely no access. The fact that they think these consultants are ‘in’the business gives them hope. They don’t realize that these guys barely exist on the fringes of the industry.
Script consultants are not a real value like doing things like finding a free mentor can be(or working for an assistant to a successful L.A. screenwriter who PAYS YOU), nor are they the same as taking classes at local college where you can connect with some peers for a small fee for a few months. Or just working as P.A. and reading scripts while you answer phones. If you need feedback because you don’t know where you stand, there are plenty of people whose experience is just as valuable as many of the failed writers/producers-turned script consultants in Hollywood. It’s an opinion. There are writer’s groups. Just look around. It will be less money and no less helpful. But If you need a script coach to help you learn the craft, don’t do it. It’s a waste of time and money and will cost you. Nothing pained me more than giving notes to writers who didn’t know the first thing about screenwriting. I felt bad for them and bad that I was taking their money, sometimes multiple times. And none of these writers will ever sell a script. No matter how much they feel the consultant might have improved their bullscript, er, I mean bullshit, script.
As for some of the few decent writers that I’ve read (yes, in my opinion) who have worked at and understand the craft, most of them will never sell a script either. Especially not from Nebraska. And all of the websites promising access to people who otherwise have no other way into the business for a fee are simply preying on their naivete. A word of advice: Don’t do it. Any evidence these pay sites and consultants offer as proof of success is dubious at best. Sure, a few unlucky saps might get a no-money option from some third-tier guy calling himself a producer. Sure, the producer might have made a few crappy movies no one has ever heard of. But you’re not going to launch a successful career as a screenwriter with this guy. In fact, they might even find ways to get more money from you. To be a screenwriter, you’ve got to move out to L.A., network and work in the industry, and most of all write. Everyday. If you do those things, you’ll learn soon enough if you have what it takes to be a screenwriter. And if you don’t, then maybe you’ll end up doing something else you love in the industry. With a real producer or company that makes movies or television.
Finally, I don’t understand comparisons of script consultants to other venues like classes or even books. Reading a book to motivate/learn the basics is one thing. Sadly, it won’t make you a good writer. But it’s cheaper than a consultant. Sure, there are consultants in other fields. But this is different. I’ve never heard of a “Painting Consultant” who will look at an artist’s painting and tell him how to make it better for a fee. That sounds crazy, because it is. Go take some classes. Find a group of local screenwriters and start a writer’s group. Or don’t. Just keep doing what you love and you might just get better at it.
“Linda Seger has an IMDB page. Check it out. When you’re done laughing at the posters of the movies she’s consulted on, head on back.”
Linda Seger’s consultant credits include Universal Soldier, The Never-Ending Story II and Luther. Actors in her films include Joseph Fiennes, Alfred Molina, Bruno Ganz, Dolph Lungren, Ally Walker, Jonathan Brandis, Frank Langella and Connie Nielsen.
What’s so laughable about that resume?
There’s another resume on imdb that includes Scary Movie 3 and 4, Senseless and Rocketman. The esteemed actors in these films include Harland Williams, Marlon Wayans, David Spade, Robert Hays, Tracy Morgan, Carmen Electra and Shaquille O’Neal.
In the case of the second writer, I know there’s more to his resume and career than is listed on imdb because I’ve bothered to do my research and I certainly wouldn’t slander him online without first seeing him speak, reading his scripts or actually talking with him.
That’s right, and none of her consulting credits include writers who have paid her. Go figure.
She just went a bit batty sweetie. Thinking she knew all the answers and believing her own publicity and overlooking that it’s wrong to charge writers money.
That’s all.
Lost the plot, so to speak.
Just to be clear, no, MBoland is not me. He was a client of mine, but I in no way asked anyone to speak on my behalf. Perhaps just MAYBE – someone has a different view than the majority of posters and felt like expressing it…sorry if that inconveniences any of you. If I have something to say, I will sign my name to it.
Yes, Connie, perhaps I should go get a real job. I wonder if “message board writer” is a paying gig…that is your chosen profession, right?
Thanks Geo for not “pissing” on me, though I do feel a slight drip. As for your question about what I will be doing 8-10 years from now? Who the hell knows? Does ANYONE in this industry know waht they will be doing in 10 years? My 5 year plan didn’t really go as planned, so why would I think my next 10 year plan would? Who knows -maybe I will finally sit down and write that million dollar script. I guess that would finally make me “qualified” to teach…oh crap…I’ll be too busy and important to, so I guess it won’t really matter.
Derek was right on two accounts – one, perhaps my contact at the agency I mentioned isnt sitting on the edge of his seat for the next recommended client script I present – but that’s because MOST of those scripts (and consulting clients in general) are NO-name, first time writers and NO ONE is looking to read those scripts. But the fact that my contacts are WILLING to read them – or be presented their query letters, etc – is due to him knowing me and my ability and it’s more access than MOST writers get. And instead of spending 100 bucks on stamps for those useless Snail Mail query letters or 10 bucks a pop for virtual query letter sites, my contacts are free and it comes with a recommendation from someone they trust.
Derek was also right in that writers shouldn’t have consultants attach themselves to their scripts. There are a few companies out there who put this in the fine print and they are total fucking scam artists who don’t deserve to be called “consultants.” I told you – I’m not defending everyone out there, just the profession in general. There are VERY few consultants out there who DO produce, and most were producers 20 years ago. So please, don’t go with any company that says if you get a recommend, they will attach themselves as producers – that is a true scam and I’d happily sic Connie on those companies…but not everyone’s like that.
Where Derek was somewhat wrong was pointing out how those well-known working writers “help” wannabe writers. Writing an article, guest speaking at an event, blogging on sites like these…it’s all very “nice” of them to donate an hour of their time. And it’s usually very entertaining- I love hearing WIlliam Goldman or Shane Black speak about how they hate this actor, and fucked this studio executive. Or how they “get through” writing the second act. It’s anecdotal bliss. But none of that teaches anyone anything. And that A-List writer, once they leave their podium or finish their article, isn’t reachable by the masses. Every wannabe writer can’t go pick their brain or ask follow up questions or show them what they’ve written according to their comments and ask if it’s good. Because as Derek pointed out…they just don’t have the time. So, for me, a good consultant with experience can be the connector there.
And not to keep this going (because it’s grown old and I’m not sure there’s anything new to be said)…but I dont know who WriterReader is, but he sounds like someone who just wasn’t a very good reader. If it made you sick to give writers notes, that tells me you just didn’t know what you were doing – so you felt like you were taking advantage. I know what I’m doing. Now, I happen to agree with him and tell all my clients and students to do exactly what he suggested – move to LA, become an assistant, gain experience working in the industry, study the marketplace, practice and read, and then read some more. Let’s be clear – I never said consultants are THE way to break in, or even the best way. But they are way cheaper than moving to LA, going to pitchfests, entering 10 contests a year, sending out 50 query letters, etc.
And the fact remains that half of these “wannabe” screenwriters find their “passion” late in life – 40s, 50s, 60s, etc. And they can’t exactly move to LA and work as an assistant to a 24 year old “executive.” I try to tell those with no discernible talent that it’s not for them and to not spend anymore money on it (not even on me!) but you can’t always argue with passion (as I’m learning from Connie). So, you do your best, you give your constructive notes and you hope that it truly helps. Either helps them be a better writer, or helps them realize it’s not for them.
We’re just waiting for one of your client’s credits.
We’re looking for a client who has sat through the theatrical release of the film they developed and sold, with, a consultant’s help. Any consultant, we’re not being picky at this point in time.
Anybody?
Thought not.
And even if there was “one”, would it have been worth the mutilation of so many others?
No. As Craig said, they would have got there anyway.
Dan Calvisi:
Maybe that’s why I give my advice away for free, ya know? Although I have to say, presuming The Hangover Part II is a massive hit… I still don’t think I should charge people for “consulting fees.” I just don’t believe in it.
Once you charge for your “expertise,” you need to make damn sure you’re apparently an expert. If Ms. Seger were really, really good, I can’t help but think she’d have her name associated with some bigger movies. Everyone in Hollywood is looking for an edge.
Danny,
Why is “nice” in quotes? And your characterization of the way pros speak at conferences is not my experience at all.
Dan, I heard Linda Seger speak and I found her theories on screenwriting dated and lame.
Danny-
Being ‘good’ at giving notes? I don’t know. I love reading scripts and giving notes, though, and I happily do it with fellow writers for free. I don’t pretend to be more of an authority than I really am- a fellow writer who, much like you, has also worked for various A-list companies and on various small indy projects. And beyond- I’ve been through the C-list producer optioning my script crap. But I also know what the real deal writers who are working are doing, and they’ve never used a script consultant. Ask them. Even new ones. I’m not close to being an authority and I would never call myself one. What makes me sick is that there are people who, like Craig said, do act like they are holier than thou and that they can give any writer an edge. It’s hurtful. I call B.S.
I heard Linda speak too and I also found her theories dated and lame. So, no argument here. Same goes for many of that older crowd of consultants. Hauge, McKee, Rotcop, Richard Walter, etc.
Derek, I didn’t mean to imply that writers don’t enjoy giving back – I know that many do. And I know that writers love to have that access. But, many (not all, but many) of those sessions and speeches writers give don’t actually TEACH anything – they are just really enjoyable and entertaining and maybe there’s 2 or 3 bits of knowledge on their process or breaking in story that a writer in the audience will connect with. I’m just saying doing that is different than if an A-List writer like you or Craig were to sit with a writer (or 100 writers) and literally help them develop and write their script. Yes, that would probably be the best kind of mentoring or consulting possible. And I certainly understand why you can’t do that, I just think it’s nice that there’s someone who can if a writer feels they need that help (assuming they are qualified to give it). And despite what Craig says, if he HAD to do that more than once…he’d realize he’d want to charge for it.
And Connie, I cant wait for one of my clients scripts that I have consulted on to be made. Of course, I’ve only been doing this at my own company for 18 months, and the film process usually takes a great deal longer than that…but I promise to let you know when it happens. Certainly there have been plenty of produced projects that have had the aid of a consultant. And even if there wasn’t – there have been numerous contest winners (which makes writers money), numerous writers who have scored managers or agents with the help of their consultants, and hundreds if not thousands of writers who feel better about themselves and their abilties and learned something new. Of course even if ALL of my clients had their scripts bought and produced, Connie (and probably Craig) would still say that it would have happened with or without me. So, I realize I can’t win here.
On the other hand, not ONE script ever pitched at a pitchfest has EVER been produced in the last 15 years. Many have been optioned, clients have been signed, but not one film ever produced. And yet, there are at least 10 pitchfests a year and writers shell out BIG money for them – way more than $150 for notes. just sayin’
Craig! My script consultant just got the job writing the sequel to Superhero Movie!
Eric:
As long as I’m not writing it, I’m happy!
Derek, I believe you didn’t like her seminar so I’d like to read your take on her, not a second-hand thrashing by someone who wasn’t there and has never even worked with this woman or any consultants.
I also respect your resume a helluva lot more than the other two I referenced. (as long as we’re judging by imdb pages, which isn’t 100% fair considering all of the writing work that goes on behind the scenes and also that many of the best consultants and speakers have experience in development, not writing, which is just as much if not more valuable to a growing writer because the people reading and evaluating their script submissions work at the studios and agencies.)
And with all due respect, I’d like to ask you and Craig how many new writers you routinely spend hours with analyzing their material and giving them career advice for free.
I wouldn’t ask the head animator at Dreamworks Animation to teach me Maya but I might drop $500 to take a class at UCLA Extension taught by a guy who used to work for Pixar.
And just so people know, there’s a LOT more to this issue than this article touches on. There’s also hundreds of threads around the internet where writers who’ve hired consultants discuss their experiences, so you might want to check them out.
She’s charging writers five thousand dollars???
FIVE THOUSAND !!!!!
Oh brother. Oh joy, the very first poster was right.
I don’t think Craig has actually saved anyone’s life, but, there’s a good possibility that he’s saved a writer.
If a studio or production company or even a producer wants to invest 5k in development, that’s great, I don’t even think it’s a high fee. Good editors are hard to find, one’s that writers like working with anyway, so, they may not get that many gigs in a year.
But expecting a writer to pay them that??
I feel sick.
There are a few things missing in this collaboration.
A producer, for one. I’ve never heard of a script going into that sort of development without a producer. And often an executive producer is part of it already as well.
Not JUST the writer, PAYING the editor.
That’s just devastating to hear. I mean, does she realise what each and every one of them is expecting for that 5k.
A sold script, produced into a film. That’s what every writer paying her is expecting.
Every single one of them, so, suffice to say, at the very least, the majority of them are going to be miserably disappointed.
I wonder what hold she has over them.
To silence them.
Do they sign a contract?
Oh, man, I want to see one of her contracts. Can someone post one anonymously?
Would that be legal?
I wonder how many writers have put an extra bit on the mortgage to pay for that.
Urg, or borrowed it from their mothers. What a nightmare.
Anyway, look, it’s working writers who set industry standards. All of this is for them to deal with, not me.
Where’s Jeff. He’s been watching this industry grow. He must have some thoughts about it.
I’m getting out of here. I think I’ve made it obvious how upsetting it all is to me.
Don’t soften on this.
pff. And thanks for a real Halloween.
*shudder.
Dan Calvisi:
“With all due respect.” The gentleman’s way of saying “Fuck you, and…”
How many new writers do I routinely spend hours with analyzing their material and giving them career advice for free? So far this year?
One.
Wow, this has gotten really intense! I think I got my questions answered, but I want to add a few of my thoughts to the conversation.
Every writer knows theirs is a lonely pursuit, and yet every writer hopes to connect with an audience – a reader (hopefully many). The most common advice I hear is to ‘never show your work until it’s ready’. This is good advice, but the question is: how do you know if it’s ready?
If you need feedback to guarantee it’s ready to show, then you are in fact showing it to someone (I’ll call this the Feedback Paradox). Are you only supposed to show it to friends and family? What if you need more technical, specific feedback than a non-industry layman can give?
What if your best is not yet good enough, and you don’t know it? How long are you going to have to flail around in ignorance, and lose opportunities until you finally reach… whatever threshold means you’re ‘ready’?
This industry is not clear-cut about what it desires from writers. If you want to be a doctor or a lawyer, there are very clear steps and tests you must pass to become one. Not so with writers.
My first original scripts were features – I cringe to look at them now, but they must not have been too bad for an amateur because they garnered me a lot of interest and help. I trained with my mentor to write tight 2 page practice scenes using characters from my favorite TV shows, and got really good at mimicking the voicing.
Even though I wanted to be a feature screenwriter, I had to consider the option of being a TV writer instead – I had a bit of a struggle with close-ended plots, and I came up with concepts that could continue on in a series.
I even had producers love one of my pet concepts, and encourage me to write a pilot so they could show it to an executive assistant at Warner Bros. I wrote the pilot in 2 weeks, based on my treatment and extensive notes.
Apparently, even though TV has often encouraged writers to use samples of existing shows to break in, TV-land has recently been begging for original material (I also heard this at a panel of TV writers).
But I’ve still always wanted to be a feature writer – and the confusing thing is, most movie assignments are not original. They are mostly adaptations, remakes, and sequels. So I figured hey, why don’t I just show I can do the job, by writing some sample adaptations? And I did – each one within the 8-12 week timeframe that studios expect from writers on assignment.
And yet, I found the feature world was resistant to this method. To prove that you’re ready to take on assignments, you have to come up with something unusual using your own original ‘voice’ (even if a lot of the screenplays that have that unusual – often controversial – voice will never actually get made). Huh? How does this system make sense…?
Even with all the help I’ve gotten, this process has been confusing to say the least. I can’t imagine what it would be like for someone who has no one to help.
Craig, I actually meant “With all due respect” because I respect you and Derek’s accomplishments; I was just making the point about judging from imdb pages not being fair.
And I applaud you on your work with your protege, but I’m wondering if they are a relatively young writer based in L.A. who already has some impressive credentials or they are located far outside L.A. without any contacts in the business?
My latest clients are a struggling actress in Florida, a housewife in San Francisco, an I.T. programmer in Montreal and a young filmmaker from Australia. None of them have any friends or relatives in Hollywood or any chance of getting a busy, successful produced screenwriter to work with them, but ALL of them deserve to have the chance to develop their craft while getting feedback from someone who’s worked in the industry and taught hundreds of other writers. Whether they’re paying $50 or $500 is no one’s business; they’re adults and they can do what they want with their money.
Yes, they COULD just buy some books, start a local screenwriting group in their home town and enter some contests, but that could take them years to learn the skills that one $250 package with a good consultant could get them in one week (and btw, the former would probably cost more than $250 in the long run).
Now, I know you’re not talking about $250, you’re talking about the exorbitant high end of $5,000, which yes I agree is high, but I don’t think we’re talking about poverty-level people paying with a credit card; I’ve never taken money from someone who wouldn’t make their rent if they hired me. They’re almost always successful professionals with a helluva lot more bucks than I.
If a dentist going through a mid-life crisis wants to buy a $50,000 sports car to get him through this period of his life who are we to tell him no? Now, if he wants to pay $5,000 to fly to L.A., stay in a posh hotel, go to three pitchfests and pay five consultants to give him notes on his script…if he can afford it and it’s his money, what’s the difference?
Dan Calvisi:
“And I applaud you on your work with your protege, but I’m wondering if they are a relatively young writer based in L.A. who already has some impressive credentials or they are located far outside L.A. without any contacts in the business?”
Very young, living on the East Coast, no credentials, no contacts in the business.
“ALL of them deserve to have the chance to develop their craft while getting feedback from someone who’s worked in the industry and taught hundreds of other writers.”
Even you don’t believe that. If they DESERVE it, then you should just do it for them. But you charge them, because they DON’T “deserve” it any more than I deserve a Big Mac or a BMW or a freshly mowed lawn.
“Yes, they COULD just buy some books, start a local screenwriting group in their home town and enter some contests, but that could take them years to learn the skills that one $250 package with a good consultant could get them in one week”
That’s my fundamental disagreement. I don’t think a “good” consultant is ever worth $250, and I don’t think consultants can actually impart skills that are worth $250. I think consultants can and will tell these people what the consultants believe is good. Big difference. That’s not something I can prove, any more than you can prove that you’re imparting skills (unless you can provide us with some names of clients who started with you when they had nothing, and are now steadily working screenwriters).
“If a dentist going through a mid-life crisis wants to buy a $50,000 sports car to get him through this period of his life who are we to tell him no? Now, if he wants to pay $5,000 to fly to L.A., stay in a posh hotel, go to three pitchfests and pay five consultants to give him notes on his script…if he can afford it and it’s his money, what’s the difference?”
I couldn’t have penned a more scathing rejection of your business if I had tried (and I did). Hell, at least the mid-life crisis dentist ends up with a car he can actually drive.
Folks, if you want to spend money to make yourself feel good, I recommend the following.
Gee, I thot “With all due respect. . .” was the gentleman’s way of saying “I like you, and sincerely regret that such a fine fellow as yourself is such an ignorant fuck on this particular issue. . . “
Now, how do hookers and blow NOT make the list of better things to spend your money on? Fuck a charity.
Craig, how did your protege find you and convince you to work with him/her? It would be great to give that advice to your readers.
P.S. You’ve convinced me not to charge any money for my services. But I’ll do it as soon as every screenwriting teacher at every institution in America decides to work for free. (btw, many of those classes cost upwards of $500 and provide one round of instructor notes on students’ work.)
And please point me to your account of how you broke into the business (no sarcasm, I’m genuinely interested to read an honest account of your path and I’m betting you’ve already written that article).
Craig,
I’m sure your screenwriting friends know of your post. Hell, John August has linked to it.
What’s their take on it?
How many of those guys read the books, or used a screenplay consultant early in their career?
Tom
Teachers don’t promise industry access.
And they don’t tell you that you can learn the craft in a week.
And people in Canada and Australia have a film industry of their own in arm’s reach that should serve as their development ground.
Andrew Dominik made Chopper in Australia first. Peter Weir made Gallipoli and Picnic at Hanging Rock before he moved to L.A. Paul Verhoven, most foreign practitioners “ended up” in Hollywood, rather than specifically aiming for it.
These aspirants are all being sucked into cyber hype, yet still no one has testified as to how their careers were furthered by these nutters.
I’m sill waiting on a client’s credit.
And I would overlook all of it if you were just taking their money, but you’re not, you’re mutilating them and actually diminishing their prospects of a career by doing so.
Credits please.
And now to see all these terribly brainwashed devotees, even the consultants themselves, skipping around the internet trying to justify all of this.
You don’t see anyone in the real film industry having to do any of that.
Connie, I agree with all you said, but you’re talking about the awful, unqualified, immoral consultants, not the good ones that actually help people and don’t make false promises of access. The good ones aren’t telling writers that they’re guaranteed to be selling a spec to a major studio (or even that they’re guaranteed to get a submission; just getting your script read by a good company is difficult) just like your golf pro or trainer doesn’t tell you you’re going to be a pro athlete.
Craig is lumping them all together and saying none of it is worth any money and I strongly disagree and so do the many writers who’ve had positive experiences with consultants and teachers. That’s it, I’m done; I wish you luck no matter what path you choose.
Dan Calvisi:
I don’t think of this person as my protege. And I don’t think it would be fair to him if I started talking about him and his career on a public blog. Also, it’s one guy. I’m no saint.
Tom Hagen:
They tend to agree.
They haven’t used screenplay consultants. At least, no one’s admitted to using one.
Still a great discussion!
Dan, I actually agree with you for the most part, but Craig is right: your dentist example was as big a condemnation of this whole dream machine sub-economy as any!
I don’t think consultants need to be as defensive as they have been. Sure, Craig Mazin attacked you (even us, I guess), but if your services are genuinely valuable then your clients will see it. As I said before, there are so many ripoff artists in the business that there should be a tremendous burden of proof anyway. Those guys gave teachers and consultants a bad name, not Craig Mazin.
I had a class last night and we talked about this thread. I even directed all my students to come over and read it and see the different opinions.
Honestly, I never feared for a second that my students might value me less afterward because Craig thinks anyone who hires Linda Seger is a moron (A completely defensible position, I might add). My value to my students is not based on promises but what they learn week to week and how they feel in their gut their writing gets better and better (and not just because I tell them it’s better!).
Tom Vaughan:
Tom…first post that made me think there might be a good one of you out there.
Hi Ray # 108,
So, a lifetime later…
Thanks for your very thoughtful response. Your post did strike me as blunt and, yes, ballsy, mostly because you played fast and loose with the facts. But, you said your questions are genuine, and I trust that they are. So here’s my new response:
You seem to feel that writers who don’t do the kind or caliber of work that Steve Zaillian does must be successful solely or primarily because of the group of people they pal around with. That couldn’t be further from the truth.
What your criticism overlooks is that there are lots of different kinds of films and lots of different kinds of writers. There’s high-brow fall fare (my personal fave), summer blockbuster fare, obscure indie fare, etc… You hire Zaillian if you want high-brow fall fare like Schindler’s List (excellent) or The Interpreter or All The King’s Men (mediocre to wretched, if you ask me). If you want a big commercial blockbuster, you hire one of the blockbuster guys. This group of guys falls into the latter category, and The Robotard has the potential to follow in their footsteps, however original or not their Black List script happens to be (and I watch so little broad comedy that I couldn’t say).
As for this group of guys, they aren’t as different as they may look to you from what is, admittedly, a distance. Every successful writer had someone who’s championed them, often a producer. In this case, it’s a group of writers who’ve had enough success at the box office for their opinion to matter around town. Sure these friends have recommended each other for jobs (happens all the time in Hollywood, even if you don’t hear about it), and yes they appear on panels together (though panels do nothing for your career), but no one hires a writer just because someone recommended them. They hire a writer because they believe that writer can reliably deliver what they need.
Your original post seemed to hinge on the idea that originality and brilliance are pre-requisites to success, but they’re not. Those may be pre-requisites for winning an Academy Award (though that, too, is debatable), but they aren’t pre-requisites for having a successful career. Reliably meeting expectations (including expectations regarding commercial sensibility) are.
Understanding that The Robotard have been recognized because they tapped into something that Hollywood is interested in (and not because their friends “gamed” the system), gets you one step closer to understanding how Hollywood works. And whether you’re Zaillian or The Robotard, it works the same way.
Oh, someone (Dan?) asked how I got my start.
http://artfulwriter.com/?p=176
You know what else is B.S.? Screenplay contests. At least all of the ones you’ll find in a link or ad right next to the so-called script consultants’ blog post about what makes a script work.
This is basically 99% of the contests out there. Winning one of these won’t do shit for you.
Thanks for the link, Craig, as I hadn’t seen it before (I started reading here in late 2007).
At the risk of hijacking the thread, and giving props to all of those lessons (and probably adding bold to the importance of having an acceptable roommate immediately to cut costs with!), which you clearly tried to make as widely applicable as possible. . . do you think your genre helped with that path? Comedy translates more easily, it seems to me (and some other advantages, I think). The comic Halloween memo had a better chance of getting you unfired than the truly disturbing action/adventure or pschodrama one, I’d guess (for instance).
Still have a copy of that Halloween memo?
Or embarrassed enuf for one nite?
geo:
The Halloween memo is lost to time… although I do remember I smeared fake blood on each one.
I don’t think it’s any harder or easier to break in with comedy. There are a million terrible comedy screenplays, and a million terrible dramas, horror, thrillers, etc.
Yeah, there are, Craig. . I just think it is a little easier for genuine comedic talent (crossed with actual ability to write, of course!) to get noticed pre-making it, than some of the others. The real-life opportunities are more numerous. The Xerox Boy who has the talent to be the next Mamet (or whoever, non-comedy) is going to do what? Genuine comedic talent, however unpolished, can get across in a page or two. . . not so some others.
Many of the greatest comedic writers of all time were short essayists, after all.
But then I read your (linked from within) piece on ad writing, so you clearly had ample non-comedy opportunities to prove your basic writing savvy along the way.
And that wasn’t intended to be a “comedy guys have it easy” riff, either, btw. “Dieing is easy. Comedy is hard.” I suspect there are more horrible comedy screenplays out there, per 1,000, than the others.
My impression is, however, that getting a cold reader (say, spec) past the first 1/2 page is the #1 task, and getting them past page 2 is the #2 task; and, further, genuine comedy talent has a better chance of doing that than some others.
Seems like an appropriate spot to mention Heinlein’s treatment for “Abbott and Costello Go to the Moon”.
Terry can tell you about the difficulty in general of translating Heinlein (hell, Heinlein couldn’t do it very well, so I feel for Terry. . . ). But comedy? Oy.
/Connie multi-post impersonation OFF
Great article. The fees some of these people charge should be a crime.
I’ve read a number of books on screenwriting theory, but what I realized very early on (about halfway through the first one I read, Syd Field’s Screenplay, when he imposed his paradigm on Network) is this:
These are all critical theories. They are developed based on observation of movies that already exist. Ultimately, they are part-and-parcel with any theory of film criticism — auteur theory, feminist theory, genre theory, etc. They may be useful in diagnosing problems with a screenplay that has been written …
… but they aren’t much value when it comes to the far more important issue of, how do you create a movie, a story, a screenplay?
A critical theory doesn’t really cut it there, not even Aristotle (the granddaddy of all dramaturgical critical theories (Western division, at least)).
What’s needed is a creative theory.
And that is something that every screenwriter must develop on his or her own, personally. Oh, there’s ideas and processes and tricks and tools that one can learn about from others, but even there, the key is making those ideas and processes work for yourself. Adapt, adopt and improve. Good writers borrow, great writers steal — meaning, take what you can from others, but — always — you must make it your own.
That’s why, for me, the far more valuable books specific to screenwriting and filmmaking were ones that detailed the creative process of people — writers, directors, producers — who actually took on the challenge of telling a story to an audience dramatically and cinematically, and accomplished it.
As for consultants …
Even allowing that every person in the trade is above-board and of highest caliber, I still think it is foolish for a writer to pay anyone to give ‘em notes on his/her screenplay. Not because of the value (or lack of value) of the notes themselves, but because the very thing that the writer is relying on someone else to do, everyone who aspires to be a professional screenwriter must learn to do for him/herself.
Professional writers must be able to assess their own work in terms of, what I accomplished, relative to, what I wanted to accomplish or intended to accomplish. Relying on a second party — paid or unpaid — to give you notes on a screenplay does not develop that ability; it would seem to stymie it.
Not only that, but a second party can’t measure your work against your own creative ambitions; they can only measure it against their own subjective values and sensibilities.
It just doesn’t make sense to me to shortcut one of the most important things that any screenwriter must be able to do.
-Ted
Ted Elliott:
::applause::
Ted Elliott’s read a number of books. . .
Terry Rossio defends books as at least giving you a common language to talk to the people you need to sell to on a “reference works” basis. . .(and a cheap way to “keep your head in the game” while avoiding actually doing).
Craig Mazin admits that some books have at least marginal value. . .
Well, okay, maybe we should take books out of play in the general “not worth the price, compared to the alternatives” conversation, while admitting that some are move valuable than others (duh). . .and, SWEET!, often can be had for consuming for nothing at the library.
This may be me having a book fetish moment. . . .(me looks around at a 7,000 book library in his personal space. . . )
Ted,
Couldn’t you say the same for reading screenplays and watching movies as a learning tool? Even Craig approves of that with his “Study the scripts online. Study the films.” Isn’t that what the “gurus” do? How does one learn the creative process from reading scripts and/or dissecting films? There’s no explicit creative theory being expressed in a screenplay. There might be a writer’s commentary on a dvd here and there if you’re lucky, but it’s usually the director talking about his process of “interpreting” a writer’s work. The Criterion collection can’t show you how to create any more than a guru’s breakdown of a film from that same collection in his/her book or class. In a way, Craig is endorsing the idea that students of the craft attempt the same reverse engineering that gurus attempt. But that still doesn’t help with that creative process you mention — since neither you nor your guru know for sure what it was.
This has all been extremely illuminating. As mentioned way back when, I feared that I might be one of the consultants Craig referred to in his original post. While I never suggested that I could pass great scripts on to industry friends, I did accept money from writers in exchange for advice on structuring their story, a service that many were happy to pay for. They felt there was a unique perspective I had to offer on story structure and found great value with the help I provided them.
I’ve been watching this thread dutifully for the past week or so, weaving back and forth on whether or not I had the right to do so (no specific writing credits) and one thing has become clear to me:
I’m out.
The first a-ha moment came with this:
“I’ve never heard of a “Painting Consultant” who will look at an artist’s painting and tell him how to make it better for a fee. That sounds crazy, because it is.”
I’m not quite sure what it was about this, as I’m pretty sure this is what all the anti-consultants were hitting at, but for some reason this really struck me and I became embarrassed. For years I had been providing the same notes, whether for friends, or students, or even online through questions about something I had written, without charging a single dime. When people started offering to pay me to read their work, I became excited at the prospect of being able to additionally provide for my family by doing something that I really had a passion for. This new-found potential blinded me to my own experiences as a fledgling artist, and the screwy logic that would lead one to believe they could be the story equivalent of a “painting consultant.”
However, it was the idea that I could possibly be taking advantage of someone’s midlife crisis that made me sick to my stomach. I want no part of that.
I won’t be charging anymore for my services. I’ll still offer to answer questions and offer my own advice as I always have (much to the chagrin of some I’m sure), but I’ll just be doing it because I like to and because I find story fascinating. In addition I’ll be refunding all fees to previous clients. No blood, thank you very much.
Why the long drawn-out explanation? I just wanted to thank those who took the time to voice their thoughts on this issue. I think I’ll sleep better tonight.
Jim – You’re seriously going to let an internet message board comment – written by someone you dont know and might very well be a total fucking whackjob – change your mind about your career and your morals? Seriously?
All that tells me is that you SHOULD return all that money, because you’re too dumb to keep it. And clearly, you dont have the intestinal fortitude for this business – as a consultant, a screenwriter, or anyhting else. Try teaching elementary school – you can be a fingerpainting consultant.
And perhaps there SHOULD be painting consultants out there. There’s a lot of shitty art made that could/would/should never sell. That last part’s a joke, people.
Jim:
First off, don’t let some anonymous internet jerk like the guy above me get you down. That’s a sign, frankly, that you’re on to something.
I salute your epiphany, and I’m really impressed with your sense of decency and self-examination. For what it’s worth, I don’t think you have to give any money back. The fact that you’re out of this particular segment of the business is a big enough deal.
Consider this an earned chip. I owe you one now. Call in the favor when and as you wish… if I can help, I will.
I might be wrong but I’d guess that when Terry read those books he would have been well into his writing career.
He would have just chewed them up, been mildly entertained, then spat them out and they were all but forgotten the next day.
That’s very different to a new writer “following” them.
He would have been already too robust to be overly influenced or swayed. So when he recommended them, he would have recommended them as a few hours of light entertainment, as opposed to a doctrine.
Another way to view your work is to let it sit for a few months, and then read it again. Certain aspects will just leap out and force you to develop it.
But also, processes vary, I do think feedback is important for some solitary writers, co-writers don’t need it because they’ve got permanent feedback from their co-writer.
Coppola and Scorsese always read each others scripts. Oh no, oops, it was Spielberg and Lucas.
(anyway, both accomplished practitioners, who would have been very perplexed at the mention of a consultant.)
Find writer friends. Some you end up co-writing with. Others you just keep as lifelong friends. Doesn’t matter what format they write in. I’ve got a few friends from film school who still read for me.
And Dan, he’s lumping consultants together because they all do the same thing, they’re all readers, they all take anyone’s money, with the promise of a career, and industry access, but none of their students have forged a career.
None of them. Not even one.
And they’ve all got these shocking webtraps.
So, Craig’s not lumping them together, they’re actually lumping themselves together, by all doing the same thing.
Just a bit of weird infectious mayhem that struck cyber space, but no worry, it’s all sorted now, nothing to see here folks.
Just don’t ever pay for feedback.
Simple.
See.
Now you never have to think about it ever again.
And we can talk about creative structure some time, but I get bashed up in any conversation about structure. Literally. Always.
ha ha. Which of course, also makes it fun.
Nah. Some other time.
I’ll try to get hold of the exercises and post them.
I know, I’ll post them one at a time, and then anyone who wants to do the exercise can do it and post it.
We can have that as rehab therapy.
I’ll ring them tomorrow.
@ Ted Elliot #337, Amen, Amen, Amen. @ Jim #341 and the “Painting Consultant” (and whomever originally said that) — exactly.
“I might be wrong but I’d guess that when Terry read those books he would have been well into his writing career.”
Terry thought enough those titles to include them in his “Steps to a feature film sale” — which is posted on his site for every wannabe to see. Ted pointed out that some of them were to be read only to be versed in development lingo — but the others were put forth as having value beyond that. And they were listed on the same level with his own notes on writing screenplays.
Again, I am a professional writer that teaches on the side so I seem to be exempt a little bit from Craig’s scorn. I jumped into this fray earlier because it seemed some of the posters (not Craig) were suggesting that if the whole thing doesn’t come naturally, don’t bother. This seemed pretty extreme to me.
Ted,
I believe you’re right on target with the exception that I think you may underestimate the ability for someone to help another actually find their own way as a writer. I see the teacher’s job as teaching a student to make definitive choices about what story they’re trying to tell and then teach them as many tools as possible to both decide and execute the best way to tell that story. I tell my own students from the beginning that any “notes” that don’t begin with a healthy discussion on what story they’re trying to tell are just another list of opinions, usually no worse or better than any others. Without a criteria to know which notes help and which notes don’t, the young writer can get lost – even ruined – very easily.
As most writers are already aware, the best students are the ones that need you the least. I was largely self-taught so I don’t believe my job is to “teach” them to write, but to cut the learning curve down considerably so they can get where they were going to be anyway a hell of a lot quicker. The goal is not to get them to conform but to empower them. The more confidence they write with the more their own voice emerges. Ironically, this usually means a strict adherence to dramatic principles.
The whole point of the endeavor is to teach them the ability to assess their own work in terms of what they accomplished relative to what they wanted to accomplish. If I thought I was actually an obstacle to that outcome I would stop teaching.
Jim,
Yes, you need to get out of the business. Not because consulting is inherently immoral (Again, I disagree with others on this, though we all agree most are waste of money), but because you lack the confidence that you’re helping these writers as a fantastically discounted rate. I would say if you lack that confidence then you are probably unqualified. (Unfortunately, there are many that mistake their arrogance for confidence)
I think the the “painting consultant” comparison is a little silly myself. The art is different, the craft is different, the industry and the market are different. It’s a good line, but that’s about it.
The ironic thing is that most every aspiring writer wants feedback. Anyone who works in the industry can attest to constant requests from aspiring writers. So most writers are looking for feedback and expect someone to take two or three hours out of their day to provide them with a read and notes. And they shouldn’t have to pay for it?
Someone like Craig could get 10 read requests a week from rube writers all over the counry. Reading and feedback time might eat up 30 hours of his week. Doesn’t sound like a productive use of his time if he’s not getting paid for it, especially if he has bad habits like eating and providing for his children. My guess is that Craig says NO to most people who ask him to read. What else can he do? (Most in the business will use the “liability” issue as a polite excuse to bow out.)
In the name of fairness, we should just do away with feeback altogther. Don’t ask anyone. If writers shouldn’t pay for feedback and shouldn’t inconvenience people by stealing their time, we should just do away with feedback period. Don’t ask a writer or a friend or a consultant for feedback.
One exception would be asking someone who could benefit (financially or career advancement) by taking time to read your script. Like an agent or manager or executive or producer. But it’s not a favor, it’s business. If your crappy script burns bridges with those people, then so be it. The process will help to weed out the talented from the talentless.
Another rule of thumb might be that if you don’t have an IMDB credit, don’t you dare ask someone to read who does. You can find another writer who’s at your level (who, admittedly, will be as useless as a consultant because they haven’t worked professionally either and have no credits) but you’ll swap scripts and the useless feedback will cancel each other out.
Stop looking for handouts and charity and validation. If you’re not willing to pay someone to take time out of their busy life (and according to this blog entry, you shouldn’t), then don’t ask them at all.
Do it yourself. And if you’re not good enough to do it yourself then you’re not going to make it anyway.
Josh Olson’s rant was right on.
I’m really finding this thread to be fascinating as I’m seeing so much misinformation and false assumptions being thrown around here and I love how everyone’s acting like they did it all on their own with nothing but their brilliance and tenacity (even the people who have done nothing but love to hang out on boards like this run by people who have reached the top. I believe that’s called “starf*&king” in some circles — what’s the cyber equivalent?).
I’m not defending myself or this business, make up your own mind. I stand by everything I’ve said and if you want to learn more about me you can just use El Google, but there’s a few more things that I feel behooved to say.
The suggestion that writers don’t need to show their work to anyone for notes…paid or gratis…is preposterous and I hope no one comes away with this bit of “advice.”
Connie, what are your qualifications?
And fyi there are freelance consultants in every field, people, creative or otherwise. If I were a struggling painter who’d paid $100,000 for a useless degree from a top arts school, been painting in obscurity for 5 years with only one small gallery show and a couple graphic arts jobs to show for it, I would consider paying the former professional art gallery scout from New York a few bucks for some advice. (notice I said “professional,” as in having actual industry experience.) I might actually learn more than I would from my local art group with the 90 year-old ceramics guy, the kindergarten finger-painting teacher and the P.H.D. in poetry. Gnome sane?
To each his own.
And Craig, if you get an actual credit on The Hangover II, I’ll do something I would never do even at gunpoint: buy a dvd copy of “Superhero Movie.”
See ya in the funny papers.
Dan Calvisi:
I’d react to your final comment about H2 (and Superhero) if I understood the implication.
Tell you what. If I get an “actual credit” on H2… how about you get out of the script consultation business?
Dan,
You really lost me on that last post. I agree with you far more than others do about the possibility of a consultant being helpful, but your comments about “actual credits” and besmirching past credits made me wonder just how much you actually know about this business. Or, more insidiously, how much you rely on others not knowing about this business.
At your request I did Google you and I looked at your consultant site. You may actually be a fine consultant but I saw a lot of red flags on your site. None more so than the thought that this might seem impressive to someone who doesn’t know better but actually smells to high heaven to a pro. This is not a good sign. This is especially true about your bio.
If I knew nothing else about you (and I don’t) but your site, I would absolutely advise writers not to hire you. And keep in mind, I am not against the concept of consultants in general.
Jim-
I made the “painting consultant” comment a while back, and I think you’re making a great decision. As for Anonymous(the angry idiot a few post back) and Tom Vaughn (I think teaching classes is nothing to be ashamed of on your end, btw, and isn’t anything like what the consultants offer or claim to do) who say that you need to get out of this business, that’s just silly. You were never in. Now you can finally move on and get back to building a career, whether its through your own writing or some other aspect of the business. You’ll look back on this and see that’s it’s the best decision you made.
And to the anonymous directly above, many of the consultants, in my experience, who have any credits on Imdb, big or small, use nameless young aspiring writers/producers/whatever as readers paying them pennies, and these nameless people often have absolutely no credits or real experience. It’s a numbers game to make money, and the named consultant basically assigns the notes to the various readers and then forwards them back to the client stamping his/her name on it.
Aspiring writers who get into the real business will find lots of successful people, just like Craig, who will be willing to take time to read their stuff along the way. They’ve been where you are. And they won’t charge for it because they’ve got real jobs that feed their families.
Craig- thanks. This was awesome and I hope this gets out to aspiring writers everywhere- it’s writers like you and John August that make the internet the great resource that it is. Hopefully they’ll be able to navigate their way around all the charlatans that get in the way.
I mean if I’m watching The Hangover II and I see Craig’s name up there on the screen I will go buy that dvd the moment the film is finished.
Dan Calvisi:
Why? What’s your point?
By the way… some bad news for you (or good?). I’m getting credit on the movie. There’s only one writing entity on it. The team of Phillips, Mazin & Armstrong.
Kind of creepy of you to call it into question though.
geo –
Craig’s prohibition on books was extremely narrow: don’t spend money on books about screenwriting by someone who doesn’t have a real movie credit.
I don’t even offer that prohibition. It’s impossible to know what might be the exact thing someone needs to spark their own process or inspire their own thinking. It’s a, watchacallit, unpredictable antecedent state (some my thinking about storytelling was influenced by my reading about evolutionary theory, even though that had nothing to do with why I read it. Who’d a thunk it?)
(BTW — one the best books I’ve ever read about storytelling is also a book about evolutionary theory, disguised as a book about a fantasy world: The Science of Discworld, by Terry Pratchett, Ian Stewart and Jack Cohen. Learn all about the pattern-seeking instinct, the recursive mind, narrativium and why, instead of homo sapiens (wise man), we should call ourselves pan narrans (storytelling ape).)
dave –
I’ve certainly never suggested that writers shouldn’t read books or watch movies. I just don’t see much sense in paying someone to give notes on a screenplay.
Tom –
I don’t think I’m over- or underestimating anyone’s ability to find their own way as a writer; I’m only saying, its something that is absolutely necessary for any writer.
That’s the key difference between (my definition of) a teacher and (my definition of) a “guru.” A teacher encourages writers to ask themselves, “What story am I trying to tell, and how do I best tell that story?” A guru tends to tell writers “Here’s how I think all stories should be told, regardless of what the story is.”
-Ted
Ted–
Thanks for the rec. And thanks to Amazon for having it.
I find it unlikely I’ll be attempting to write a script anytime soon, but Terry P. is never a hardship to read. . .
And I’ve always enjoyed the world-building sessions at sf conventions anyway.
preeeeeeeee……cisely
So. That’s settled. No one should be paying for feedback.
And with regards to “how to write” books, I’ve never read any of them. There’s no point even debating them. Maybe comedy likes to be a bit more anarchic, maybe it relies on it, I don’t know.
There are no “musts”. Just whatever speaks to you.
And you can do exactly what some other writer has done, and still, it’s likely to do nothing for you. Cos they are them and you are you.
I’ve steered clear of them. I always thought they seemed a bit like jackhammers, or math class or something.
I read all of Hollis Frampton’s books early on though.
He said: Why is not the question, why is the reason.
But he was a film poet.
And you shouldn’t mentor anyone for too long, or they’ll become dependent. Three to six months and then boot them out, you can easily juggle three per year.
Submissions open for mentoring by Craig. Please just email what your background and aspirations are and a few pages in screenplay format, two or three will do.
Comedy only.
Same for Jeff.
@ Ted Elliot #358
“I don’t think I’m over- or underestimating anyone’s ability to find their own way as a writer; I’m only saying, its something that is absolutely necessary for any writer.”
“A guru tends to tell writers “Here’s how I think all stories should be told, regardless of what the story is.”
Yes, and yes.
Oh Dan Calvisi,
I just visited your website too. Senior Story Analyst at Miramax working for execs who actually did the development job (while you were, I guess, their reader?). And Reader? We all know that’s nothing and in no way qualifies you to provide “expert” advice.
But, seriously, I’m as confused as Craig about your Hangover 2 point. What is your point, exactly? You didn’t think he could get a writing credit even though he has writing credits? It’s just confusing. Are you alluding to films he’s worked on for which he didn’t receive credit and, if so, how is that different than, I don’t know, all the working writers in town? Do you just not like his work (and, if so, so what? He’s being paid by people who do). It’s just confusing. But then I’m generally confused by people who read the blog of someone who so clearly drives them crazy. Maybe it’s a dude thing.
P.S. Re: Dan Calvisi,
Couldn’t resist. Went to your site one more time. Wrote “professional story coverage?” Uh, okay. So have I. I’ve also written “professional” screenplays, however, and I can assure you that counts more (though, yes, read enough scripts that don’t work and a few scripts that do, and you will learn a thing or two — though nothing that you’d be justified in charging for).
@ Anonymous #351,
Uh, you get your friends to read for you and you read for them in return. Also, your exec and producer friends will read for you because there may be something in it for them (or maybe because they like you, who the hell knows). Don’t have writer friends? Get some. The best notes, in my experience, come from other writers. And wherever you get your notes, don’t substitute someone else’s judgment for your own.
Paula, I am also a professional screenwriter, in that I have been paid to write screenplays. Features. They just have not been produced as of yet; but the checks cleared. You would know this if you took more than 60 seconds to cherry-pick your way around my site and refer to things out of context.
In fact, you and I have exactly the same number of produced feature imdb credits.
Zero.
And as far as I can google, Connie Steinhart is either a 60 year-old CPA in Indiana or a short filmmaker who likes to enter contests. Maybe both. I just want people to know who’s slinging mud here.
If you don’t feel that being a top reader for major studios and then teaching and working with writers for over 13 years is a qualification to charge money for notes, well then I’ll never change your mind. But don’t lump me in with all the other jokers out there whose background is in poetry or message boards.
And now I’m going to take Craig’s advice as said in this fine article of his and skeedaddle. We should all read this every time we log on: http://artfulwriter.com/?p=1062
Oh God make it stop.
The blind lead the blind. Jokers to the right of me, clowns to the left….
And then there’s Connie. Craig comes to Connie in the night and speaks wisdom that only she can hear. Thank the lord that she has the presence of mind to come here and share it with us.
Tell you what – you get one REAL writer in here, and ask him or her what they think. So far, we have a lot of guys who generate product, and they have all sorts of great ideas about how you can become a guy who generates product, but I don’t see anyone who even thinks of film as an art form (let alone is recognized as an artist) chiming in. Can a book teach you to be a great writer? I don’t know. Can a book teach you how to generate formulaic product so that you can one day see your name up there with a bunch of other product generators on some piece of branded entertainment? I bet it can.
I’m sorry. I’m being an asshole. Ted, Derek, Jeff, Craig et al may have their faults, but I don’t see any of them pretending that what they do is top notch WRITING. But you get my point, I hope. If not, I’ll just have to defer to the magnificent Connie.
Ray Motess:
However will Ted and Derek and Jeff sleep tonight? “Ray Motess” thinks they’re not top notch writers. Oh noooooooooes!!!!!
That’s not what I said. Ted and Derek, at least, are A listers, and co- write big hit movies. What none of you write are movies whose writing is recognized as being particularly – excuse the expression – artful. You all can opine authoritatively on what it takes to write scripts that sell to studios, but if you were to start telling people how to become genuinely great writers, you’d be getting above your station. Threre are two different subjects. If someone is trying to learn how to write scripts that sell, this is one discussion. If they’re trying to become great writers, it’s another. If you want to pretend there’s no difference between co-writing Wanted, Superhero Movie, Pirates 2, Hotel For Dogs and writing Network, or American Beauty, or In Bruges, then you’re doing as much of a disservice to your readers as these hack “consultants.”
Ray Motess:
I honestly don’t know what you’re on about. I don’t tell people how to become genuinely great writers. I just try and help them navigate the business, mostly.
Sure, I guess that includes selling scripts to studios.
So, I agree? You seem to be flailing around now in a desperate attempt to start a fight. It ain’t gonna happen.
Yep, Dan, won’t convince me, though glad to hear you’re a working writer as well. That gives me a little confidence that you actually may know a little about writing. Being a reader doesn’t tell me you know how to give notes to a newbie writer that can help them advance their career. Doesn’t mean you don’t, but definitely doesn’t mean you do. I have to agree with whoever said that the bio you’ve posted seems designed to prey on people who don’t know what a reader is and how low on the totem pole that job actually is — and that’s not cool.
P.S. And, yes, like you I have no imdb credits so far, but I’m not name dropping the studios and production companies I’ve worked for as a writer in order to get someone to part with their dough. You can disparage me, but not sure what you’re disparaging. I’m not out there hawking my credentials to make them seem like more than they are — and I don’t have to be a produced writer to point out that you are.
I find myself gobsmacked at the difference of opinion on this matter that Ray suggests the great writers of all time would have with Craig, Ted, and Terry on this issue.
So the theory is, the auteurs would be more open to paying for “notes”? That’s the theory?
Oh my. That not only doesn’t pass the giggle test; it doesn’t even pass the guffaw out loud test (which I just did).
Connie’s statement that none of the consultants have clients who’ve forged a career should shut this conversation down. What else is there to say?
Ray,
I don’t think the word “artful” means what you think it means.
Anyone who is trying to discredit writers here are either devotees or consultants.They want us to fight amongst ourselves, they want to divide and conquer.
All writing is art, and all writing is product, and no writer should ever pay for notes.
“Anyone who is trying to discredit writers here are either devotees or consultants.They want us to fight amongst ourselves”
I might be wrong but I think that when someone here mentions “writers,” they’re not including you, Connie.
Why doesn’t Dan offer his service to one of the naysayers? Maybe Connie or Paula would volunteer their script and see how Dan works. Then maybe we could get real experience and insight into the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of the process instead of a lot of blowhards talking about something they know nothing about without any kind of empirical evidence.
“Artists don’t talk about art. Artists talk about work. If I have anything to say to young writers, it’s stop thinking of writing as art. Think of it as work.” – Paddy Chayefsky
-
Oh sweet Jesus…I’m not sure why I’m doing this…just when I thought I was out…they pulled me back in…
No personal comments this time (though Craig, I’m not sure why Tom’s points made you think there were good consultants out there when I made basically the same points and got no love- but that’s ok. Maybe he’s prettier ha.)
But I just wanted to point out that there is a BIG difference between a “READER” and an “EXECUTIVE.” I’m not casting any aspersions on Dan – especially since he’s the only other consultant trying to fight a losing battle. But I do want to say that being a READER – in my opinion – is not the same as being an executive and shouldn’t be clumped into the same category!
Readers READ and they write up a few pages of COVERAGE – the purpose of which is making sure no one else has to actually read the script. It’s more of just saying that something generally is or isn’t good enough, but most coverages dont have constructive suggestions on how to fix problems.
Executives, on the other hand, do just that. We write pages and pages of NOTES – from general structure to specific line notes. We don’t JUST say pass or recommend – we DEVELOP. And that DOES make us qualified to help writers with their script and give them notes. It just does. It’s our JOB. Whether I’m being paid by the production company or by the writer himself – it’s the same skill.
Readers do NOT interact with writers while doing their jobs. Executives DO. Readers are paid 40-50 bucks a pop. Executives aren’t. (this is why “readers” like the idea of charging 100-200 a pop as a “consultant” instead).
So, it’s fine if you hate all consultants – but can we at least make the distinction between a “reader” and an an actual executive when discussing being qualified to give notes. Thanks.
Danny–
Accepting your distinction (and not just pro forma. . I do), whether it is the same skill or not, there is a huge difference. . . a genuine executive has the power to actually influence a buying decision directly.
That’s a pretty huge distinction.
You don’t know me, and you don’t know why I do it, but Heinlein is my touchstone (which, aside from Destination Moon is a little weak in this context, but oh well). He had five rules for writing, one of which was:
“3. You must refrain from rewriting, except to editorial order”
Of course he didn’t mean rewriting for your own internally recognized reasons. . he took 12 years to write Stranger in a Strange Land –we can be pretty sure there was a lot of rethinking going on!
But the point is, don’t spend your time rewriting to the order of anyone other than the fellow who can actually buy the blasted thing. . . You’re better off working on the next one instead!
Which is why I’ll never qualify as a genuine writer –not nearly prolific enough. Real writers write. A lot. With very few exceptions (I mentioned Stranger above) they keep churning out new ideas/work on a regular basis, and grow in the process.
Danny, “reader”, “exec”, whatever, it’s obvious you really want to cling to your business, but you’ve taken money from writers, and Paddy wants to know if you’ve got any of them work.
Danny: Word. http://bit.ly/9ga4Op
Connie: We’re still waiting to find out who you are, hon.
Connie/Maralyn is just getting ready for her close-up.
So, you’ll have to wait — just like Mr. DeMille did.
Nobody cares who I am.
I’m not under the microscope here, I’m not taking anyone’s money with the promise of helping them get a career.
The jig is up.
No one would care even if I was the 60 year old CPA. Presumably she would represent the majority of your prospective clients anyway, so, even she wouldn’t be out of place here.
But Danny, lets be clear. An executive doesn’t take money from a writer. He gives the writer money. The reason the writer listens to the executive is because its his job. You guys can call yourselves whatever you want and list your qualifications until you’re blue in the face, but until you start paying the writers to make changes to their scripts, you’ll just be another jack ass with an opinion.
Have I gotten any of them work personally? No. I’m not an agent or a manager. My job is simply to make sure their scripts are good enough for them to submit to be able to get work. But I have gotten a couple of my clients meetings with executives. Also, one of my clients just won the Screenwritng Expo TV contest (yes, on a script i helped on) and won $1000. Another of my clients won the Disney Fellowship and now has an agent and is meeting on staff writing jobs. And another of my clients sold their script to Lakeshore. Has anything been produced of theirs? No. But…I’m pretty sure most amateur wannabe writers would be pretty damn happy with any of those things happening to them… Again, I’m not saying it’s BECAUSE of me. But you asked what my clients have done. So there ya go. And yes, I’m clinging to my business because I’m not weak enough or insecure enough to let a message board or the internet’s version of Nurse Ratchett sway me from my career.
Craig,
I wasn’t trying to start a fight. I was simply pointing out that there are many different angles to this question. I agree with you on the subject of paid consultations, but not so much on the subject of teachers. I think when it comes down to that question, it’s important to distinguish what we’re talking about. Can someone who’s not a working writer teach you what you need to know to navigate the waters of the business? Probably not. Can someone who’s not a working writer help you become a much better writer? Absolutely.
Derek,
Actually, the word “artful” means exactly what I think it means, and I used it appropriately. If you can’t figure out what I meant from the context, check your dictionary.
Ted,
Your Chayefsky quote is cool,, although not appropriate in this particular context. If it makes you feel better, though, I’ll concede that your movies are in the same league as Kubrick’s.
Craig,
You can’t hide behind statements as big as these:
“What is NOT a smart move is listening to the people who DON’T do the job.”
“Simple rule of thumb: don’t spend a dime on a book, a lesson, a seminar or advice if the person selling DOESN’T HAVE A REAL MOVIE CREDIT.”
Actions speak louder than words.
Have an aspiring screenwriter place an original spec — an unproduced screenplay — in the hands of Craig and a script consultant, say…Dan Calvisi, and see who provides the most thoughtful advice on how to improve the work. Simple blog post. Have the screenplay available for download, along with Craig’s advice and the advice of the script consultant.
We’re smart people. We’ll rattle off in the comments and let you know what we think.
Craig doesn’t have to prove that his notes are better than Dan’s.
The only way we’d know which version was better would be by which version ended up with a theatrical release.
And that would take at least two years to prove.
This is what has mislead even Dan himself. His audience likes what he says, eventhough it’s just all showmanship..
But this isn’t an intervention, this is a freakin exorcism.
It’s just dreadful how you refer to your clients as amateur wannabees. How do THEY feel about being called that.
Surely they don’t think of themselves as that.
I mean, they’re paying a consultant, so by rights, they must think they’re a bit above that.
But I don’t want to massacre Dan.
I have no urge to draw blood.
Just one question for you Dan, if you had to choose another career, what would it be.
No, I mean, if you had to.
Connie,
It’s ridiculous to assume you’d need to take a work from page to screen to find out whether someone gave good notes or not.
Seems like Craig would jump at such an opportunity. I bet a script consultant would, too.
Ray,
I don’t need to look in a dictionary to know that artful means “cunning” or “clever” or “skilled” as in “the artful dodger.” Craig named his blog “the artful writer” because he wanted to provide writers with insight into the business of screenwriting and he wanted to suggest you can take your career into your own hands and navigate this business with acumen. There are skills to be learned beyond typing “Fade In:” and knowing where your second act break goes. You spent two posts telling Lowell, Mazin, Elliott and me that we aren’t “real” writers, that we generate product, that we don’t think of film as an art form, that our screenplays are inferior to award-winning screenplays like IN BRUGES and NETWORK. In an attempt to cleverly use this blog’s title to underscore your point, you said we don’t write scripts that are artful, from the context, meaning “artistic.” If our scripts — despite being written by inferior writers who generate product — keep getting produced, wouldn’t you have to say that our screenplays must be, by default, artful… or that we, if nothing else, are artful writers? Don’t take that away from me too!
Wow, this is phenomenal. You people are still arguing over what boils down to one man’s opinion, as though he would or should change his mind. Maybe EVERYONE should take a little advice from Craig and get to writing a script– not posting on his fucking blog. That includes Craig.
Derek,
Actually, you DO need a dictionary. I’m aware of the meaning Craig intends by the title of this blog. However, if you’d resisted the urge to play gotcha, and actually paid attention to the context in which I used it, you’d have grasped that I was referring to one of the word’s other meanings: “done with or characterized by art or skill.”
You said, “ If our scripts — despite being written by inferior writers who generate product — keep getting produced, wouldn’t you have to say that our screenplays must be, by default, artful… or that we, if nothing else, are artful writers?”
If you are using the word in the same manner Craig does, then yes. You are. If you actually want me to say that the screenplay for Wanted, or Hotel For Dogs is on par with the screenplay for Network, then I’m going to defer. Just getting produced isn’t a sign of quality. It’s a sign that you’re capable of giving the studios what they want. When it comes to films like the ones we’re discussing, quality is not exactly Job One, Derek. The lessons taught by these consultants, and most of these gurus isn’t how to be a good writer. It’s how to adapt your writing to the needs of the studios. Do you understand the difference, or will you argue that studio executives are reasonable arbiters of quality and taste?
You’ve taken the same approach as Craig to this one. Rather than firmly state your case, you sarcastically mock what I said. You want to knock me for saying that what you do isn’t the highest level of craft that writing for film can achieve, but you don’t quite have the fortitude to claim that 2 Fast 2 Furious is as signficant an artistic achievement as The Godfather. You’d rather dance up to the edge of the implication, but then leave room for plausible deniability.
There is nothing wrong with what you do, Derek. It serves a purpose, and a happy one, at that. Sometimes people just need to escape for two hours. But you degrade and insult the work of real giants, artists and innovators when you imply that you’re a peer to those giants.
@393
So… Ray, in your view as a consultant worthy of my money (or just as someone who defends the notion that such exist), unless and until I pen a screenplay which you deem comparable to NETWORK or GODFATHER, I’ll be just another hack?
And your clients pass this litmus test?
Or does this absurd arbitrary standard apply only to others?
Curious to understand how you claim that this makes sense, as right now… it doesn’t.
@Ray Motess #369,
“If someone is trying to learn how to write scripts that sell, this is one discussion. If they’re trying to become great writers, it’s another.”
Actually, it’s the same conversation. If you’re trying to become a great writer you need a consultant/book even less, since you certainly can’t become “great” by mimicking a formula.
@ Anonymous #376,
LMAO. Why would I try out Dan’s services? I actually don’t have a void in the getting feedback on my writing portion of my life. I’ve got that covered, but thanks.
bla bla bla, you’re off topic and on the nose there Ray.
You’re all wanting to upset and insult us so we’ll behave like storytelling apes and you’ll look like you’re winning the argument.
But this is not one man’s opinion.
This is the exposure of a crime being committed.
Craig’s notes would be better, because he’d have his eye on the prize. Craig, has experienced it, he’s sat with an audience watching his own film, which is what the person wanting notes also wants.
Danny has never experienced that. He has no instincts for any of it. His eye is on the writer’s wallet.
But we’re not going to convince the consultants, or the followers. They’re too far into this madness to see the truth of it.
They think this is their only hope, that’s why they’re so full of hate. That’s how invaded their perspective is.
And how sad all this is.
Okay, one more before I get to work for the day.
Ray Motess #393,
I’ve been skimming, so I think maybe I’m missing something (and please forgive me if I misunderstood your intention above). Here’s what I’m trying to grasp. What does the quality of Craig et al’s work have to do with whether their opinion about consultants is valid? Are you saying that if you want to write something brilliant you do need a consultant versus if you don’t, you don’t need one? Cause, honestly, if you want to be brilliant and produce true art, you really can’t be overly dependent on other people, even when making use of their feedback. You’ve got to figure out for yourself how to write brilliantly. There’s definitely not a course or consultant that can deliver that, because that happens at the page.
Btw, I don’t actually care if anyone uses a consultant. That’s a personal decision and it sounds like some people have found them helpful, along with books, teachers, etc. The problem, I think, is that they seem to be peddling so much more than what they actually deliver. Maybe if they were just offering feedback I’d feel differently, but Seger, at least, promises to offer a formula to make your good script great, and that’s just poppycock.
Paula,
I thought it was a worthy challenge. Since you’re an expert on consultants (and with the way you critique their actions, I would assume you are), why not allow Dan to consult on one of your acripts. Not because you need the consultation but because it would allow an expert like you to relate the experience to others. Then you could come back to us and say, “His feedback is no better than free feedback” or “He’s very insightful.” Otherwise, this all feels like an unfortunate witchhunt.
Ray,
Different films fulfill different needs and serve all sorts of purposes. The Godfather is a great film but Avatar is the most successful film of all time. People love it. There’s cults devoted to it in such a short amount of time. Who’s to say which film is better? Roger Ebert or the blue collar worker that actually buys his own movie ticket? You? Great is subjective. Maybe Derek doesn’t want to write stuff like Network. Instead he wants to write things like Matarese Circle and The Double, both kick ass great scripts. Maybe Coppola and Paddy wouldn’t want to (and maybe couldn’t) write scripts like F&F. Who cares? We want variety. Some scripts inform and prompt discussion, others entertain. some do all of the above. I like having a choice on Netflicks.
And, Ray, are your scripts as good as Network or The Godfather? And if they aren’t, does that mean you’re not an artist?
And no one has been able to convince me that anyone has in fact been helped by them.
Danny lists a few placements in amateur contests and a failed option. Of course these writers themselves will claim to have been helped, but after more than ten years of these traps out in cyber space, and millions of dollars extracted from writers pockets, still not one has had a theatrical release.
Not one.
So, please don’t ask others to entertain this notion of “some writers have been helped by them”, because clearly they haven’t.
The person I’m most concerned with here is the struggling actress in Florida, who may even already have decided what to wear when she gets to Hollywood. Knowing full well, it doesn’t take much to dress better than Diabolo.
I mean, we’re not going to have to hide the razorblades are we?
And rather than “test” Danny’s abilities on some unsuspecting script, cos, lets face it, he’s had hundreds of opportunities to do that and failed, so, why one more, I think we should send a memo to all agents and managers to steer clear of these paying consultants, and remove their names as industry contacts, so as not to mislead vulnerable writers any further.
In fact, all we’d have to do is email a link to Craig’s post and it would be done.
Because by accepting to read scripts by these middle men they are accessories after the fact.
They are participants, albeit unwittingly, in all of this.
If they’re taken out of their websites as lures, these businesses would close down. And new writers would stand a chance of surviving all the way to the surf.
I couldn’t resist:
LOS ANGELES, CA December 11 & 12, 2010 Screenwriters Summit
Together they’ve sold over 2,000,000 books, spoken to over 500,000 people and traveled to more than 40 countries. Michael Hague will join other famed screenwriting gurus Syd Field, John Truby and Chris Vogler at the Screenwriters’ Summit. Over two intense days, THESE FOUR MASTERS OF THE CRAFT will provide you an unmatched depth and understanding of screenwriting and story that is ideal for screenwriters, filmmakers, TV writers, producers, directors and creative executives.
Michael, John, Chris and Syd will each teach half-day classes followed by a half-hour Q&A session in which you’ll be able to follow-up with any questions you may have. The speakers having taken the time and care to share their outlines with each other to make sure they provide you the best, most engaging material possible without overlap.
Don’t miss this rare opportunity to hear 4 world-class speakers in a single weekend where the goal is simple: to learn, network and have some fun at the same time. The Vancouver Sun called last years Vancouver Summit “a most amazing event” that “drew an incredibly diverse crowd in terms of ages and backgrounds. Great event.” With the class size being strictly limited to 150 participants, the Screenwriters’ Summit in LA will be a great and unique opportunity to hear some of SCREENWRITING’S BEST AND MOST-RESPECTED TEACHERS.
Craig,
You can’t hide behind statements as big as these:
“What is NOT a smart move is listening to the people who DON’T do the job.”
“Simple rule of thumb: don’t spend a dime on a book, a lesson, a seminar or advice if the person selling DOESN’T HAVE A REAL MOVIE CREDIT.”
Actions speak louder than words.
Have an aspiring screenwriter place an original spec — an unproduced screenplay — in the hands of Craig and a script consultant, say…Dan Calvisi, and see who provides the most thoughtful advice on how to improve the work. Simple blog post. Have the screenplay available for download, along with Craig’s advice and the advice of the script consultant.
We’re smart people. We’ll rattle off in the comments and let you know what we think.
Lots of desperate people will attest that psychics have helped them, too.
There are almost as many psychic shops in Los Angeles as there are script consultants.
Okay, I lied. I’m back. A quick point.
Anonymous,
I never said I was an expert on consultants. In fact, I’ve actually said very little about consultants, other than Dan (most of my comments were about books), and here’s what I said: A consultant who says you should choose him because he was a Reader is selling a bill of goods.
P.S. If I were interested in doing a consultant “challenge” — just for fun and because I have so much time on my hands — Dan wouldn’t make the cut. But for those who might be interested in using his services, I’d suggest they ask to read his writing, since he’s also been a working writer. That comes close to mimicking the situation where you get notes from writer friends whose talents you admire and respect.
Connie, please stop lying through your teeth and speaking as if you know any of us or our work. Please stop saying that no consultant has ever helped a screenwriter forge a professional career. You are wrong and have absolutely no evidence to support this statement.
And for anyone who believes that contests and pitchfests also have not produced a single success story, do some research and you’ll find you’re dead wrong. I’m not endorsing any of these methods as the best route or the only route; find your own path.
Connie, I’ve never met you or worked with you and as far as I can tell you have no credentials as a screenwriter or industry professional. Doesn’t mean you don’t have the right to post here, it just means that when you judge and criticize and speak as if you are an authority on these topics, we know to dismiss you.
You are an anonymous troll that’s trying to bait others and I won’t play into it by listing my resume to you. I don’t have anything to prove to a jealous, bitter lying star-f’er or anyone else, because unlike you, I offer a ton of information on my website and I stand by every word. In fact, I’d warrant I present more info and specifics about my background and methods on my site than almost any other consultant.
I’m not going to post a link here to my site out of respect for another blogger’s site and because some troll like you will just say I’m spamming. It’s a losing battle. You know of this thing called Google. I had bowed out of this thread but then you kept on with your petty attacks so I felt compelled to post again.
Stop being a bitter liar and take your own advice and get back to the desk.
And I realize I’m giving you exactly what you want — attention — but you went too far and I needed to stop it. Now shoo, little fly, shoo.
Paula, please stop characterizing me as “just as Reader.” That’s ridiculous. You’ve read one line of my bio and suddenly you’re trashing me.
It’s the same as me calling you “a short filmmaker.” Accurate?
I can’t believe I’m still posting on this thread but I’m not going to stand for people slandering me because I had the guts to take the bullet for all the good script consultants out there who are getting lumped in with the shysters by people who have never even worked with a consultant in their life. It’s like saying every trainer who trains overweight clients is stealing their money.
In fact, that’s a great analogy: I happen to have the discipline to eat right and stay in shape. Others don’t and they need help. But I’m not going to put myself as superior to them and say that every trainer and nutritionist is a fraud because their clientele are a bunch of lazy fatties who should just get off their asses, drop the donuts and do some pushups. In both cases, they’d lose weight, right? The self-motivated way and the trainer-assisted way. So does one route mean they didn’t earn their new body and the other means they have a ‘real’ body now? And sure, the ripped professional athlete can make fun of the struggling, middle aged overweight housewife and her paid trainer but that’s a bit petty, isn’t it? Remember where you came from and drop the holier-than-thou Hollywood attitude.
Exposure !! Woo-Hoo !! Exposure !!
See the great consultants work their craft !!
Witness the magic before your very own eyes !!
pff, All I want is a title sweetie.
Just…. one ….little ….theatrical release. We won’t be fussy and say it has to be “great” or anything. You’ve stated your clients are just amateur wannabees, so, even some little obscure limited screening we’ll accept.
Not such a great feat around these parts, maybe I should do a tally, but even if you only glance from your peripheral vision here, you’ll see credits aplenty.
Fabulous releases. Galore. Big ones, little ones, shiney ones, funny ones.
So, why shouldn’t we expect the same from the consultancy industry.
I believe, in fact, that you’re clients expect as much.
That’s what you have lured them into believing with your list of industry contacts. That’s why they are paying you.
Dan Calvisi:
It’s a bad analogy, Dan. Every single person on this planet has the capacity to lose weight and get in shape.
Almost no people on this planet have the capacity to be professional screenwriters. Talent, as it turns out, is rare. So is whatever else is required to be a professional.
It’s not a question of holiness. It’s just a fact.
With that in mind, I do think everyone needs to drop the personal bullshit against Dan or anyone else commenting in here. I’m gonna shut the thread if it continues.
Sorry to interrupt Connie, but we’ve got a lady from Florida on suicide watch … and there is a crowd out the front burning effigies of agents…what should we do?
To be an artful writer is to be able to trust your own instincts. What teachers/readers/audiences provide, whether they be accredited or homeless ranters, are opportunities for clarity. Not that they will always be able to articulate this clarity for you but that they will, if you look for it, provide you with a mirror to assess the affect of your work.
A person/an exec/a teacher/a focus group (or, when it comes right down to it, any audience) might say, “I don’t like the way your movie ends.” Okay. So then what do you do? Do you change the ending? Would that be the artful thing to do? Or perhaps digging into understanding why it doesn’t work (not digging into why it doesn’t work for them, but why it doesn’t work for you). Or, perhaps, realizing when the person/the exec/the score card/ the audience say, “I don’t like your ending” they’re actually giving you the correct response. How could they like your ending when you intended for an emotion other than ‘like’?
Does that make sense?
Craig and Linda are just members of an audience. Their value is no greater and no less than the other. They are equal to a homeless ranter, to an Ebert, to a Coppola (or to a Cage for that matter… I suppose I covered that with homeless ranter). Their experience makes them valuable, but no more valuable than the experiences of the next man/woman/or articulate beast. If you must pay for your audience, then pay but know that they are your audience and their value means little more than the price you paid for them.
With art, it comes down to you and only you. And maybe Gordon Lish.
Craig,
I’ve posted this several times, other commenters have referenced it, and we’ve yet to hear from you. These are your statements:
“What is NOT a smart move is listening to the people who DON’T do the job.”
“Simple rule of thumb: don’t spend a dime on a book, a lesson, a seminar or advice if the person selling DOESN’T HAVE A REAL MOVIE CREDIT.”
Actions speak louder than words.
Have an aspiring screenwriter place an original spec — an unproduced screenplay — in the hands of Craig and a script consultant, say…Dan Calvisi, and see who provides the most thoughtful advice on how to improve the work. Simple blog post. Have the screenplay available for download, along with Craig’s advice and the advice of the script consultant.
We’re smart people. We’ll rattle off in the comments and let you know what we think.
Well I thought this thread should have been closed a long time ago.
It’s only going to go round in circles anyway. And continue to cause distress.
Whatever.
Plenty of thoughts on the matter have been aired. Maybe it wouldn’t hurt to close it and let the dust settle. See it in the light of a new day.
What? Sorry this is just an early experiment in sockpuppetry.
Eric-
Here’s a challenge. Why don’t we have Craig and the consultants do work on a script and see who which one gets made into and actual movie first.
And I believe there isn’t much talent out there because it’s been mauled and homogenized in cyber space. Viral books, gruesome webservices, know nothings on messageboards.
That’s what I believe is destroying talent.
Their best chance of survival, and recovery, is to unplug it. All together. That’s what I think.
It’s the only way they’ll regain their perspective. Their own thoughts. Their own talent.
I believe that’s their only hope.
Paula,
I’m not a script consultant. I don’t like script consultants. If you’re going to criticize my posts, try reading them first.
Some teachers are better teachers than some people who actually do the job.
Anonymous,
My scripts aren’t as good as The Godfather or Network. But when I focus on my goals, that’s what I aim for, even though I’ll never reach the goal. If we disavow any recognition of objective quality, we lose all standards. Godfather is taught in schools for a reason. Hotel for Dogs isn’t, also for a reason. If you want to argue that Justin Beiber is better than The Beatles, I can’t be bothered to fight back.
Connie,
You believe that someone who has no credits and hasn’t done the job isn’t fit to offer valid opinions on these questions, but you have no credits and haven’t done the job.
Craig,
Is Apollo gonna give Rocky a shot at the title or what?
Ray,
IMO, there’s no band in modern history that can compare to the Beatles, so should we eliminate all other music post Beatles? Does that mean that others who make music aren’t musicians? Are no good? Are hacks? Don’t have fans? Don’t move people in similar ways?
Just because someone isn’t Mozart, doesn’t mean he isn’t an artist or not talented.
If being a writer is important to you and you’re only measurement of success is to emulate Network, then we’ll probably never see any of your work. That might be a blessing. Or it might be a loss. But to hold yourself to such lofty standards isn’t what being a writer is all about. It’s some idealized OCD perspective of being an artist. You’ll never be good enough and you’ll never accomplish anything as a result.
“there’s no band in modern history that can compare to the Beatles”
Aren’t you forgetting the Jonas Bros? Geez.
Craig, just one more point and it’s a crucial one.
You said that it’s very rare that someone would have the talent and ability to become a professional screenwriter and I agree with you.
But how do you judge who has it and who doesn’t?
Do you remember how awful your first script was? It might have even been more awful than MY first (and that’s saying something). But here you are. And here I am.
NO ONE can read someone’s first script and consider their current situation and judge if they’ll make it or not. If they have “it.”
I used to think I could. Then I taught writers for over a decade and had to humbly admit that I was wrong. People just kept surprising me.
Here’s the PERFECT example:
I coached a writer on her pitch for the recent Inktip Pitch Summit.
HER: a tiny, middle aged Filipino woman from San Francisco with no experience in writing or entertainment.
HER STORY: An ethnic drama about a Mexican family that requires on-location period shooting in Mexico and relies on the presence of one of the most famous public figures on Earth. Like Spielberg or Steve Jobs famous. So the film hinges on at the least using footage of this person, at the most it would be ideal to get their involvement in the project. But we all know the odds of that, right?
So I advised her to drop the famous person from the title and the story. She refused. I was really nervous for her, but she’d already booked me via Inktip so I gave her my input on her pitch, especially noting some things to highlight that she hadn’t previously thought were important and to get into the second act quicker.
I was still nervous for her. Even feeling a bit guilty that I was preparing her for the wolf’s den.
You know what happened?
She KICKED ASS.
She got over 10 script requests that day and she had an experienced producer CALLING HER HOUSE, asking for an exclusive.
She’s closer to getting an option or sale than 99% of the other aspiring writers out there.
And Craig, you would have laughed at her original one-sheet just like I did. And just like me, you would have been wrong.
I’m done.
You know the funniest shit? I’m sitting here reading 400 posts and as far as inspiration goes, it’s a hell of a kick in the pants for me to get back to writing.
As far as the debate goes:
Anybody who charges an outrageous amount of money promising a magic success bullet is clearly a scam artist. Script consultant or psychic or life coach or “intuitive,” they’re all exploiting a basic human need. You get up there in terms of pricing, come on… everybody knows what’s what.
I liked McKee’s book, STORY, but from what I remember most of what he said amounted to “really, all that matters is that you write something good, forget all that other stuff.” It’s strange and slightly scummy to me that he charges a bunch of money for people to listen to him say the same thing.
I have been a story analyst, which is a fancy name for “reader” since 1994. Personally, none of my passes or considers or even studio notes are based on all the dopey stuff consultants say that you have to do in order to make a script “work.” Acts and turning points and arcs and all that, if you’re trying to put them in the right place because some book or teacher says so, you’re going to sabotage yourself.
I was paid ONCE for consulting. Otherwise I do it for free, but just for friends, reluctantly, and at my leisure. One thing I always tell writers is that probably only 2% of what I say will be of any use to them. Aspiring writers need to be very careful about feedback from everyone because a lot of the time folks, including professionals, give advice that they would give themselves. What I mean to say is that much of their feedback is based on what THEY would do if they were writing YOUR script. I know A LOT of writers who get gummed up by listening to people who they think are smarter or better connected than they are. Cliche as it sounds, as a writer you got one thing going for you: your story. YOURS.
I have a couple of produced movies to my credit and everyone on this thread would be unimpressed by both, just for the record. But I still stand by my perspective on this stuff.
This topic, Craig’s advice, has generated much heat. That’s to be expected. When you attack someone’s income stream, expect a torrent of self-righteous outrage and dubious justification in return.
Unfortunately, paid consultants are part and parcel of 21st century screenwriting. Maybe years ago an amateur screenwriter was like the amateur poet or novelist, someone with something to say and the passion to say it.
Now screenwriting has become an escapist hobby for corporate flotsam and jetsom. A spoon in the hands of a prisoner in a concrete cell. FADE IN and start digging. If Arthur Miller were writing Death of a Salesman today he’d have Willy tell Biff to write frikkin screenplays.
Feeling bad? Unappreciated? Singing the blues? Here, don’t worry you poor slob, bang out a screenplay and you’ll join the modern aristocracy in no time.
Where the cattle graze, dreaming gigantic dreams of fame, so are the predators, the jackals and the vultures. Paid consultants are the natural accoutrements of the amateur screenwriting epidemic and the natural expression of a Road to Serfdom human nature.
BTW “Connie, please stop lying through your teeth and speaking as if you know any of us or our work. Please stop saying that no consultant has ever helped a screenwriter forge a professional career. You are wrong and have absolutely no evidence to support this statement”
All Connie wants is for you to back your assertions about the value of a paid consultant. All she wants is proof that one of your wannabes is now a produced professional writer. That’s not unreasonable.
Oh one more thing. I just read a comment by an executive who claimed that studio readers don’t do notes or meet with screenwriters on projects. I don’t know where he works, but where I work, that’s incorrect. We do page notes and stuff like that all the time. A lot of it’s “book reports,” which is what I tell people I do for a living, but a lot of it isn’t.
“All she wants is proof that one of your wannabes is now a produced professional writer. That’s not unreasonable.”
It’s not unreasonable to expect Connie/Maralyn/rehab lady to reveal her credentials after calling out the consultants for their specifics. Her response is “Nobody cares who I am.” Then why should her targets care to answer to her? She’s had a lot to say about others here — but not much about herself. The other critics have copped to their position on the development totem pole. She hasn’t.
That’s right.
I’m not being unreasonable by wanting some evidence that these consultants can coach a writer to success.
If they haven’t been able to achieve that in all of these years of selling their services, then, it’s a rort.
Thousands of writers have passed by them, and not one is now working.
Not. even. one.
And a stack of working writers here who have never used them can’t understand why anyone would.
This argument ended a long time ago.
Craig,
I’ve posted this several times, other commenters have referenced it, and we’ve yet to hear from you. These are your statements:
“What is NOT a smart move is listening to the people who DON’T do the job.”
“Simple rule of thumb: don’t spend a dime on a book, a lesson, a seminar or advice if the person selling DOESN’T HAVE A REAL MOVIE CREDIT.”
Actions speak louder than words.
Have an aspiring screenwriter place an original spec — an unproduced screenplay — in the hands of Craig and a script consultant, say…Dan Calvisi, and see who provides the most thoughtful advice on how to improve the work. Simple blog post. Have the screenplay available for download, along with Craig’s advice and the advice of the script consultant.
We’re smart people. We’ll rattle off in the comments and let you know what we think.
The thing that’s wrong with that request is the “we’re smart people” aspect.
What if it’s not his genre, what if the writer is from another culture, what if Dan sounds really slick and encouraging and the writer and the audience think it “sounds” better.
But the main reason why this would be a bad idea is because the writer would be damaged by the process of being exposed to the madness of a consultant.
Which is what’s so upsetting about all this. How many writers may have been damaged.
I mean, they’re not working are they. So, it’s not looking good.
Eric:
I’m not your dancing monkey.
Dan Calvisi:
Your strangest comment yet. You gave someone advice, she didn’t follow it, and she succeeded.
That’s your defense of what you do? BTW, I would NEVER advise someone the way you did. My attitude is that if your spec screenplay is amazing, it doesn’t matter if it’s unproduceable. Your talent will be evident, and you will get work. That’s why I advised the Robotard to put their script on the internet. Balls Out doesn’t seem produceable to me. But I knew it would get them work.
So that was actually terrible advice, and I’m glad she didn’t follow it… and no, I don’t think (particularly based on the example you just gave) you can presume at all that I would have shared your opinions about anything.
Connie, you asked to give you examples of what some of my writers have done- and I did – and then you say that they have placed in some amateur contests and a failed option? You’re not even READING these comments people make – you are in fact, just straight out lying. If you call WINNING the Disney Fellowship and the Creative Screenwriting Magazine’s Expo Contest bullshit – then maybe you just simply don’t know your ass from your elbow. You clearly know NOTHING about this business.
It’s amazing how you keep saying how CONSULTANTS are only in it for the money – yet your only barometer of success is if the WRITERS we are helping have gotten a movie produced and made money. What if the writers just LEARNED something or improved their writing? What if they got a MANAGER? What if they won a contest (and made money)? What if it got them READ by production companies? Is that not success? For new writers – that’s the MOST success they can imagine getting. First time writers don’t get their scripts produced – it doesnt happen…almost EVER.
So, your opinions and your barometer of success is just flat out ridiculous. And like I said, even if ALL of my clients had their scripts produced – that wouldn’t convince you anyway because that might force you to have a NEW thought, which is something I’m guessing you havent had since 1978. I will take criticism from Craig or Derek or Ted – actual professionals – but from YOU? Absolutely not. Pour yourself another drink and stop wasting all of our time! Now, I’m done.
Craig, there’s a great film business radio show out there I think it’s called Film Courage – anytime you wanna go on and debate the issue without all the crazies clouding the argument, you let me know. I’ll be there.
Danny Manus No BullScript Consulting
Reebo:
Yes, there are probably readers who generate notes for the executives to use or not use. However, I have never met with a reader in 15 years of professional screenwriting. That literally never happens.
Connie,
I’m smart enough to formulate my own opinion. I won’t speak for you, but there are many people out there who are capable of doing the same.
Craig makes his living writing for the screen. That doesn’t mean he’s above a challenge.
Being successful at something and teaching it are two different skill sets. Anyone who thinks different should think a little harder.
Eric:
I’m not above a challenge. I’m just not interested in expending my time to satisfy you. Also, I found your repeated posting of the same comment to verge on spam.
In short, you annoyed me. So no.
We’ve done the teacher debate too. It’s all the same smokescreens being thrown up.
I hate to say it, but this is losing my interest.
Craig:
You’re too pretty to be a monkey:
http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/CowardlyLion.jpg
Craig,
I finally got your attention — that’s not on the verge of anything but persistence.
Stay in your ivory tower. You’re safe up there.
Now it’s just getting weird.
“Now it’s just getting weird.”
This from the “rehab lady” who replies to her own posts as she sits hungover next to the little bunny that isn’t there.
Craig
I have no reason to lie to you. I’m telling you it happens, and it happened. Obviously not as much as executive/writer meetings and never with the executive not there but definitely in a professional context on the studio dime. This year a writer on a project called me at the executive’s behest, and I am far from a hot shot.
But fine, exception that proves the rule and all that but I can count at least 4 readers who have had meetings with screenwriters who match the professional criteria.
Craig, you know exactly what my point is, that you nor anyone can predict who has the “talent” to succeed and to presume so is pompous.
I’m sorry if everyone didn’t drive out to L.A. when they were 22 years old and dedicate their life to screenwriting and write in a vacuum until they were making gobs of money, but life just doesn’t happen that way for some people.
And as I said I coached her on her pitch and it vastly improved, but I’m not a pompous dick so I’m not going to take credit for it. I’m actually a humble person who will admit to being wrong some time.
Craig,
Win or lose, I’ll give you a badge of courage if you take the challenge.
http://i.imgur.com/6seUM.gif
Well, dave/reebo/eric/dan/danny/Rocker/anonymous
whaever
Dan Calvisi:
I know that life doesn’t always happen the way it happened to me (or I happened to it). However, it doesn’t appear that success happens as a result of paid consultants either, so all things being equal, I continue to recommend that aspiring screenwriters save their money.
To Everyone:
Things have degenerated to the point where I have to close the comments. Don’t worry. There will likely be plenty to talk about once I’ve put up my next post.