Amazon’s Bad Deal
Posted by Craig Mazin on 20 Nov 2010 at 03:03 pm | Tagged as: The Craft & Trade, WGA Issues
Recently, Amazon launched “Amazon Studios,” a strange mashup of contest/development/crowd-sourcing designed to help filmmakers “break in” by getting noticed, winning money and even having their movies released by Warner Brothers.
It’s a bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad deal.
Well, let me amend that.
It’s a GREAT deal if your script stinks and your movie shouldn’t get made. Under those circumstances, someone’s reading your crap, maybe even helping you with your crap, and perhaps as a result of human fallibility, you might even get some money for your crap.
But if your script is GOOD? If you’re actually talented? If you have real potential as a writer, director or filmmaker?
Bad, bad, bad, bad deal.
How is it bad? Let us count the ways.
CREATIVE
I can’t say it better than John August did, so I’ll just summarize. Works of authorship are special because they’re not crowd-sourced. It’s a ridiculous misapplication of new thinking. I like progress, but crowd-sourcing is a tool, and you need the right tool for the right job.
FINANCIAL
Here’s where Amazon kind of disgusts me. They put this whole “Hollywood is old and lame, and we’re the new hotness” vibe out there. In their intro video, their hip spokesman with the spiky haircut is an inclusive, welcoming voice. Hollywood is represented by a fat old Jew at a desk.
Funny thing, though. The actual terms of Amazon’s “studio” are so much worse than those offered by Hollywood studios, it’s grotesque.
First off, forget about unions. Amazon ain’t into it. Not the WGA, not the DGA.
Next, let’s talk about their option. When you submit material to Amazon–say, a script–they have an exclusive option on the script for 18 months. During that 18 months, they can do whatever they want with your script. They can change it, smash it together with other scripts… and of course, make a movie from it, or commission a book, or any other derivative work.
You know what else they get to do? They get to sell your material. They can sell your script to customers. If you submit a movie, they can sell that too. Oh, but that’s not just for 18 months.
That’s FOREVER. They have a permanent right to sell that stuff. After 18 months it’s not an exclusive right, but good luck competing with Amazon, friend-o.
And if you’re not American, you have to waive your droit moral anyway, so don’t think about gettin’ fancy with copyright, foreigners!
But okay… what do you GET for all of this?
NOTHING.
You get nothing. The option is frickin’ FREE, and the upside is capped. In Hollywood, if you option a script, it’s hopefully for something. Even a dollar. But the good news is that if the script sells to a studio, the marketplace sets the ceiling. You could get a hundred grand… or four million dollars.
Not in Amazon-ville. In Amazon-ville, you option your script for NOTHING, and the option buy-out is $200K. And when you get that 200K, my brothers and sisters, Amazon owns that script lock-stock-and-barrel for ever, just the way a studio would.
Okay, okay, but what if they make the movie?
NO GUARANTEES. Not a dime. In fact, the only way you get a penny more is if the film grosses $60M in the U.S. (not North America, btw, which is standard for domestic B.O. calcuations). If it hits $60M, you get a bonus of $400K.
Let me put this as plainly as I can: if your screenplay was good enough to be distributed by Warner Brothers and subsequently sell enough tickets to hit $60M at the box office, YOU DID NOT NEED AMAZON, and YOU SHOULD HAVE MADE MORE THAN $600K.
But wait. It’s even worse than that.
CREDITS AND RESIDUALS AND HEALTH CARE AND PENSION
Zero, zero, zero and zero. Here’s what Amazon says about credits.
We will determine in our sole discretion your credit, if any, in any film or other work we develop or produce that arises out of the Property, taking into account the guidelines set forth in the WGA Basic Agreement. Our determinations of credit will be final. Notwithstanding the foregoing, the WGA Basic Agreement does not apply to this Option Agreement. We are not a signatory to the WGA Basic Agreement.In other words, we’ll tell YOU what the credits are gonna be, bub. Now piss off.
Residuals? None provided. Health care? Pension? None provided.
Bottom line? This deal is unfair to writers, and it’s an obvious end-run around the basic union protections we have in place for professionals in this business. If you take this deal, you are a sucker. Amazon may want to present themselves as a cool alternative to the closed-off crusty, regressive Hollywood model, but this is the movie business, folks.
Things aren’t what they seem.
If someone at Amazon reads this and thinks I’ve gotten the facts wrong, I’m more than happy to host a back-and-forth with them here. From where I’m sitting, the deal they’re offering looks awful.
One more thing.
Some of you might think, “Hey, another Hollywood jerk badmouthing one of the few alternative ways in that we have.” First, I maintain that if you’re good enough to succeed with Amazon Studios, you’re good enough to succeed without them.
Secondly, the “access” that Amazon is dangling in front of people isn’t free, or even cheap. It comes at the cost of a fair market price for your work, credit protections and residuals. It hollows out the core benefits that the WGA has fought for and won over the course of decades, and it does so glibly, as if a pension or credit for your work are old-school shizz that cool kids don’t bother with.
Amazon isn’t doing this because they give a damn about you or your access.
They’re doing it because it affords them unlimited upside with very limited downside. Perfect situation for a corporation.
Perfect situation to avoid for a writer.
They’re still just going to run off the cliff yelling Warner Bros!! 200K !! Woo-hoo !! And it’s FREEEEEEEE.
Warner Bros must be like some giant teddy bear that chuckles when you tickle it and ask if it will have a first look.
Well, they’ve been warned, that’s all you can do. And they’re going to jump up and down and say you’re wrong, or you’re jealous and the world of screenwriting has been changed by the internet….I’m certainly not as generous towards them as you are. So, you can count me out of any argument.
But it’s a crying shame to see Amazon throw this much money down the drain. They aren’t going to get a viable script out of it.
It’s a kooky experiment that some recently promoted underage marketing junior will get the sack for.
I want to know when is Amazon going to invest in protecting the real Amazon. I mean, they’ve stolen its name, surely they can give it something back.
Trunk stories maybe?
See, it sounds shitty I get it. But 600K is STILL a lot of money… lol. So basically, what you’re saying is, if I submit one of gems, they have the rights to it forever? I don’t get that rule… I thought it was 18 months.
Anthony:
It’s all relative. 600K is more money than “not 600K,” but less money than “what you’d earn as a WGA writer on a movie you have credit on that gets green lit and makes $60M+ at the box office.”
The 18 months covers an exclusive option for them to make derivative works (for the sake of a script, that means they have 18 months to make a movie from your script… and no one else can during that 18 months), but they can SELL your screenplay from now until the end of time. For instance, they might bundle it together in a package of “Best Scripts of 2011″ and sell that for twenty bucks a pop, and you have no financial standing to gain. And they can do that now, or next year, or 20 years from now.
Amazon can afford to take the long view too. I wouldn’t be surprised to see The Hot Writer of 2017 finding his early effort is out for a cheap knockoff with the tag line of “From the Writer of xxxxx!”.
That “credits” provision cuts in both directions. . . not just in denying you credit you deserve, but in potentially sticking you with a credit you’d really rather not have.
I can understand them thinking it’s better to get something rather than nothing, and I can understand them not caring about it being tied up for 18 mths, what I can’t understand is how they can sell their scripts once they come out of this agreement with only non-exclusive rights.
How can you sell a script if you no longer own exclusive rights? Who the hell wants to buy a script that they can’t have exclusive rights for?
Even Amazon itself won’t let you upload a script unless you own exclusive rights.
Anyone who pushes the “upload my work” button, is in fact pushing the “no one will ever be able to buy this script” button.
There is nothing to disagree with in this piece. Well said, Craig. I hope people are listening with the part of themselves that knows better than the other parts.
I went and submitted a new spec I wrote specifically for the contest called THE AMAZON STRIKES BACK. I wrote my 160-page masterpiece in roughly 90 seconds. A tad immature and snarky of me, sure, but I wanted to see if anyone would get the joke.
http://studios.amazon.com/scripts/show/1374
But no, I would never submit work I actually believed in, or even work that I thought was crap but I spent more than 10 minutes working on.
Monetary greed and a deep seeded desire to be in control of my creative destiny will automatically steer me faaaaarrr away from Amazon and this stinker of a deal. I’m sure some will go for it, but I suspect the indie folks who are interested in control will look at it like it farted and leave it alone.
Thank you, man. I got forty people coming at me telling me this is the shit. Turns out they’re right. Well, in calling it shit they are.
Yea, it’s the weird infectious cyber mahem thingie alright.
It’s really simple, you just have to follow two little rules.
Don’t pay for anything to do with screenwriting.
Only send a script to an individual who has said they’ll read it.
That’s it. See. Easy. It’s the the funky new cool road to success.
AND, now you never have to use your brain ever again. Well, except for writing, and even then, not always.
But with regards to Amazon, sad. Butchery. From every angle you look at it. Obviously Amazon doesn’t realize that the way to survive in the jungle, is to collaborate with the strongest and the fittest, because in this, they are collaborating with only the most vulnerable.
Can someone send an email with links to the judges? It will be weakened if they pull out.
Also Josh, can you ask them if you can take your script down. See what the response is.
Typical. Corporate behavior. Having my own success in business, distant from screenwriting, there is always that sense of walking on thin ice.
Yeah, there are parties, smiles, and expensive handshakes, but in the end you’re still walking on thin ice. The nature of most business negotiations/interactions. Never feel complacent about entities one goes to business with. Keep this in mind, and you’ll realize the fluff from the other stuff.
A good to the point post, Craig.
This is really bizarre.
One aspect of this that Craig didn’t go into is that when you upload your work, anyone else can revise it or even film it. And when that happens:
And from their legal fine print:
So if you submit a script, and some other random person revises it, then Amazon gets free, permanent, exclusive rights to the revised script! And I don’t see any guidelines as far as what constitutes a revision — ostensibly, someone could change a few lines here and there and bang, your work belongs to Amazon.
I couldn’t agree more with Craig’s and John August’s assessment of the Amazon deal and many of my friends agree. We’re avoiding this. I’m not defending it in any way. And the “credit” part is downright insulting.
But it there always seems to be a disconnect with pros and writers trying to break in when it comes to money. The $200K, residuals, health care and pension are of no concern to me. I’m all for the WGA and what it does, but at this point in my career, the only thing I’m concerned with is breaking in.
For example, I have a manager who is taking 15%. When I say this, pros shudder: “It should be 10%! Never pay more!” But the truth is that I’d give 99% if I thought a deal gave me just a chance to break in or get a produced credit. And I’m sure many unproduced writers would agree with me. It’s not the money. And I have plenty of other scripts to sell.
This 15% manager secured me an option this fall. But – the option was for low 4 figures. The pros shudder again. With mid 5 figures if it gets made (with small increases as the budget increases). I’ll gladly deposit the check. But I’d rip it up if that would make the film go into production.
So $200K with ceiling of $600K, and no residuals, health care or pension? I’d sell any of my scripts for $1 today if I thought the situation was right. And if it makes $1B in the box office – yeah, bummer – but finally, I’m a professional screenwriter.
Great column, Craig! The whole deal seemed to smell foul from the beginning.
One question, though– Amazon can pull this stunt because they’re not a WGA signatory… But Warner Brothers IS. So if Amazon brings something in to Warner’s, doesn’t the MBA automatically kick in?
Jim Sullivan:
Sort of. There are three choices for Warner Brothers. They can just take the script that Amazon delivers, and then attach a director and go shoot the movie without ever hiring another writer.
Or they can ask Amazon to continue to develop the script outside WGA auspices.
Or…and here’s the kicker…WB could hire a WGA writer under a WGA contract to rewrite the script (if they hire any writer directly at all, it must be under a WGA deal). At that point, the Amazon work becomes source material, and the original writers are not eligible for ANY WGA credit at all. Just a “based on a screenplay by” credit. The WGA writers–even if they only wrote five words–would be the only writers eligible for WGA credit and residuals.
But your first priority has to be to look after yourself as a writer. Your well being is your biggest concern, because it’s your greatest asset. No one else will safeguard you.
If you put yourself in a situation like this where the outcome is such obvious mutilation, you’ve put yourself in harm’s way, and in doing so, you’ve taken a huge risk with your well being.
It’s just that new writers are more delicate than that. Even if they themselves don’t know it yet.
This will leave hundreds, if not thousands of them with a terrible feeling of dread and regret. This is the sort of experience that makes new writers turn their backs on writing.
It isn’t a template for breaking in. It’s a template for massacre.
And it’s only going to get uglier and uglier. Next they’ll turn on each other.
Sharks only give birth to one live baby, because that one baby has eaten all of its siblings in the womb.
And the thing is, even if a film does come out of it, it’ll just be one crappy film. All of that suffering to come up with one crappy film. It’s not viable.
This is the work of a nutjob. Someone who knows nothing about screenwriting.
Amazon must have a nutjob working there.
I got horrible shivers in the pit of my stomach reading the press release about the Amazon contest.
It made me feel better to read your post, see the replies, and know that people are talking about it and not jumping on the bait without question or consideration.
“I’m all for the WGA and what it does, but at this point in my career, the only thing I’m concerned with is breaking in.”
It’s exactly this type of desperation that Amazon is looking to exploit.
irin evers “I’d sell any of my scripts for $1 today if I thought the situation was right. And if it makes $1B in the box office – yeah, bummer – but finally, I’m a professional screenwriter.”
Hey Irin,
I’ve got a few dollars to burn. I’ll take the last ten scripts you’ve written.
Can’t agree more, Craig. But we’ve already seen the straw man argument you describe seriously being made by people, not all of whom are complete newbs:
“It’s a GREAT deal if [my] script stinks and [my] movie shouldn’t get made. Under those circumstances, someone’s reading [my] crap, maybe even helping [me] with [my] crap, and perhaps as a result of human fallibility, [I] might even get some money for [my] crap.”
What an awful approach to life.
WOW! Thanks for saving me the time looking into this. I’m sure my wife or others would have linked to this project when they saw it. Sure there’s a chance for short term gain but in the end it’s a loser for someone who wants to go beyond one script.
A few of the scripts I have read off the site have been bad. The doesn’t seem to promote screenwriting as a craft. One of the most reviewed and most downloaded scripts, Electric Sunset, boasts ” 15-20 of the dialogue is either referencing the band AC/DC or from their lyrics.”. Also that same writer in a forum for his script asked about camera directions in screenplays, and he mentioned Hollywood standard , he says something about maybe it doesn’t matter on Amazon. I asked him if he was just going after the Amazon money or a career. The whole thing gives me a headache.
Some writers on writing blogs talk about dusting cobwebs off old screenplays and sending them as is. I don’t get that. Writers are either down with Amazon or not. Don’t half ass it. I remember Terry Rosio said something about the most difficult part about writing a great screenplay and getting into Hollywood to sell it is: writing a great screenplay.
Craig has mentioned not everyone is a great screenwriter. It’s people not having great scripts that usually holds them back.
Amazon seems to be making a mockery of the craft.
Step one: write a great script. Then write several. Until that point a writer doesn’t need to worry about selling anything.
Is there anything the unions can do to counter-act Amazon? Also, are there any other companies that have the same idea as Amazon?
Joseph:
There’s nothing the unions can do to legally compel Amazon to behave responsibility to writers, but there’s a range of options between “do nothing” and “legally compel.” Let’s see if the WGA avails themselves of those options.
Shawn – it’s not desperation. I’m just saying that I’m not holding out for $200K, residuals, a pension, etc. in a deal. I’m holding out for an offer that I think could start my career. Even if it’s Eddie Nigmas’.
On Amazon, let me quote myself: “I couldn’t agree more with Craig’s and John August’s assessment of the Amazon deal and many of my friends agree. We’re avoiding this. I’m not defending it in any way. And the “credit” part is downright insulting.” I have not submitted to Amazon and I never planned to. An 18 month free option to have your script online makes no sense, let alone all the other clauses they have.
“But there always seems to be a disconnect with pros and writers trying to break in when it comes to money…”
…and a few other things.
Amen.
And a bad deal might be better than no deal.
I wish I could be known as the writer who got screwed by the Amazon Studios deal. That might lead to something else. Who knows?
That’s the fantasy that draws them in.
And this notion that it’s ultimately all out of their control, and that this is one chance that will let them slip through the net.
I can only speak for myself, but half of what I get goes on tax, and whatever else, you’re not left with much, that’s something you find out very quickly, it looks like a lot, but it’s not.
And then by the time you’ve paid off your platinum amex, well, that pretty much covers the rest of it.
There’s a terrible emotional expense to writing as well. The money is only barely compensation. Maybe you have to be paid to realize that. I don’t know.
But then there’s the project after that and the one after that. The terrible weight of keeping it all afloat. The amount of energy you have to continuously give it. Awful demands. And the way it invades your life.
And the film is never what you thought it would be. And when you’re a solitary writer you have to carry so much of it alone. All of it, really. I’ve never thought there was anything glamorous about screenwriting. It’s a dogs job.
The audience never appreciates what the writer has contributed. You’re the silent partner. Always under-appreciated.
Writers really just can’t let themselves be underpaid, that’s often what cuts them down dead, that, more than anything, is what can kill a writer, it adds too much insult to injury.
But noobs always think it’s going to be something that it’s not. That somehow their lives will be irreversibly changed, which they aren’t. Maybe that’s where the disconnect comes in to play. The fantasy that selling a script will somehow make it all so much better.
You still just have to get up and deal with what you were dealing with the day before you got paid.
You’re still just the same person, living the same life. You’re still just the same writer.
Breaking in, doesn’t change anything.
And certainly nothing will ever be gained at the expense of so many other writers. All roads lead to Rome, you’re headed where you’re headed no matter what.
But also, you have to have principles in this world. Or you’ve got no ground to stand on, and you’ve got nothing to write about.
Don’t focus on breaking in. It’s never a mad grab or a shot in the dark, it’s the outcome of being focused on writing, and finding people to collaborate with.
Craig,
I agree with your overall take on Amazon’s scheme, but I’m curious about the compensation thing. You wrote:
’600K is more money than “not 600K,” but less money than “what you’d earn as a WGA writer on a movie you have credit on that gets green lit and makes $60M+ at the box office.”’
Is that really true? Even for first-time writers?
Most newbie spec sales are 150 against 300, or 250/500 or 300/600. From what I gather, you’d never see any gross/net profit participation on a film making 60M domestic (even if its 150M overall).
Keeping in mind that a newbie WGA writer is probably losing 25%+ off the top for agent/manager/lawyer/WGA, they’d have to sell the script for 800K to be guaranteed to make more than Amazon’s 600K, wouldn’t they?
Where does all that extra money above 600K come from? Residuals? (HBO, DVD, etc.?)I didn’t realize they were that lucrative.
Just wondering…
I’m reading a lot of writer’s angst. IF a movie was made from an uploaded script I highly doubt that the contract would hold in court.
So yeah, you’d have to get through the hassle of suing but in the end you’d probably get much better conditions than in the original amazon contract.
I’d take that risk and I’d advise my clients to take it as well if they had no other viable possibility to get their script looked at/made.
Aaron Silverman is right. What they are talking about here is more of an open source kind of thing, where, not just one person, but everybody is encouraged to write a piece of the script in the same way that open source software gets built and evolves. It brings a whole new meaning to “script by committee”.
I was shocked to by the prices they were offering. You would think that a contest would have a nice prize at the end. To me, this is just one of those exploitative fantasy things, like those seminars that will teach you how to write a script that sells in 4 weeks. It’s preying on people who want to sell a script without the trouble of learning how to write one.
I don’t even think this whole amazon studio is for filmmakers. It think is for film fans with a lot of time and passion for films, but don’t know what they are doing or don’t care.
I think the real problem with the amazon studio is that it was advertised in the wrong websites. and some filmmakers saw it and though that was going to be their “way in” and when they read the rules they felt cheated. Like every time you think are going to write the best script ever in the first draft. It was just an illusion and I think filmmakers would know better.
I am a newbie, and maybe a bit naive. But I wouldn’t discard the whole thing just right away. I think there are some kind of interesting ideas in the initiative that might challenge the way we make movies, but dismiss them because it’s a corporation and were are used to specific ideas of filmmaking clearly noted in the previous posts.
This might sound really stupid, but if we compare the history of painting and the history of film we are probably in a Rembrandt-like stage, and we have no idea what our Kandinsky is going to be like. And the only way of getting there is by breaking patterns.
For example authorship. Why are ideas so precious, when so many people are kind of doing the same thing and stealing and copying from the same people. Are ideas so originals? and if they are why do you fear you might run out of them? and who says you cannot write something with a stranger from the other side of the world and not be your still? this could actually mean using your own audience creativity and leading them into a great piece. Nine inch Nails did something similar with their concert DVD a couple of years ago.
And other things like making it in the industry is making 600k. I sense a little Lars Ulrich in there. Movies may not be made for the maximum audience possible but for an audience big enough to pay for the cost of the film, which should include a living for the filmmaker not a mansion.
So, the Amazon idea is not working for serious filmmakers yet, but some other more clear and interesting initiatives might come from it. Because at least there is a discussion going on right now.
Paul:
Yes, it is really true, even for first-time writers. Let’s presume, as you did, that it’s 150 against 300 or 300 against 600.
You know what the second number is, right? It’s a credit bonus. If you write a spec, chances are quite high that you will be getting screenplay credit, and it’s often sole credit. So if you were a 300/600 deal, you’ve already made 600 the second the movie finishes shooting and the credits are finalized.
But let’s say it’s 150 and 300, and you end up with 300.
You’re still going to do better than 600, because of residuals. The movie could lose $400M, and it will still pay out residuals. Yes, every time the movie runs on HBO, every time the movie is rented, every time the movie is sold, every time the movie is iTuned, every time the movie runs on TV in every single foreign country… you get residuals.
And yes, even though the checks aren’t what they used to be at the peak of DVD sales, they are very considerable. If the movie made $60M domestically, you can extrapolate out at least $300K in residuals. So the 150 against 300 spec deal is definitely worth at least $600K. And, by the way, it’s not capped there either.
And your credit is assured by WGA rules.
Ken The Lawyer:
So your argument is that the contract might not hold up in court, but it would take actual litigation to get out of the contract, and if you succeeded in that litigation you might get better terms, and therefore you recommend to your clients that they should take the deal, with the understanding that they would have to pay the hundreds of thousands in legal fees required to maybe get out of it?
I don’t know much, but I know this.
You’re not a lawyer.
I deal with lawyers all the time. My sister is a lawyer. The last thing any lawyer would ever do is recommend a deal to their client that they know is so bad, it will require litigation, particularly when the other party is one of the biggest corporations in the world. Look, the internet is fun. Be who you want to be and all that, but try and play the role better, sir.
“Why are ideas so precious, when so many people are kind of doing the same thing and stealing and copying from the same people. Are ideas so originals?”
It’s not about ideas – it’s the execution of that idea. That’s what a script is. By posting your script, you’re allowing Amazon a FREE option on the execution of an idea that you spent weeks/months/maybe years on. And you’re letting anyone in the world who has an account revise it. Why on earth would you let some random schmo hack up your work? It makes no sense to me. Not to mention letting Amazon get a FREE 18 month option on something that any prod co or studio would pay for if it’s any good.
Anyway, they’re only going to see what they want to see, that’s the impetuousness of youth. And I’d like to get all angry and load my pen with venom, but to do that I’d have to be angry, and this doesn’t make me angry, it makes me sad.
What’s going on here is not “talking”. Hundreds of writers are throwing themselves at this like moths to a deadly flame. This isn’t an enjoyable conversation. It’s like talking about what it’s like to witness a group of beached whales. It’s just, sad.
I mean, I know there is an inherent tragedy to the human condition and all, but to witness their frailty laid bare like that. It’s cruel.
Craig,
If Warner Bros. hired a WGA writer to do a rewrite wouldn’t that make the film subject to WGA credit arbitration?
Another Ken (Not The Lawyer):
It would. However, the only writers who would qualify as “participating writers” for the purposes of WGA credit would be those writers employed under WGA contracts. Ergo, the WGA writers would be eligible for proper screen credit, but none of the prior Amazon writers, who would only be eligible for source material credits.
Ideas are a dime a dozen –execution is almost all. Sure, lousy execution can mess up a good idea. But great execution can make even the most hoary old trope pretty decent.
Avatar didn’t make what it did because of the greatness and originality of the underlying ideas. The first Star Wars didn’t either.
Of the several published authors I know reasonably well, and the many I know somewhat well, I don’t know that I can think of a single one who doesn’t have one or many roll-eyed versions of stories they tell of someone approaching them, and offering to split 50-50 on a project where the approacher will provide the wow-gee-whiz awesome idea and the approachee will be allowed (graciously on the part of the approacher is always the subtext) to have 50% of the massive profits therefrom for the mere trifle of turning it into full-fleshed text.
well, that’s right.
You could probably stand at the checkout of any supermarket, and ask people passing through if they’ve got a great idea for a movie, and I bet at least half of them have got something that’s got something..
But a bit of skill and cunning goes into crafting a full bodied screenplay.
The audience doesn’t want to watch a first year film school film. No one has been able to find a market for those either.
(Don’t worry, if there was one, the New York harpies would have found it by now.)
Speaking of which, one thing I remember hearing a lot at film school was “don’t expose your medium”. That means, don’t let the audience be aware that they’re watching a film. Basically, something that happens as a result of clumsiness. And ultimately, that’s where the craft, and talent, and insights of a good writer come into play. How you manipulate your audience, that’s the art.
And if they’re trying to appeal to indie film makers by letting them make “test” films of scripts, well, they’re way off track with that too.
As if they don’t have their own ideas. pff. Like they want to put blood sweat and tears into something they’ve borrowed off the internet and have no rights to. Good Lord, as if Hollywood is even what they’re aiming for.
For most indie practitioners, Hollywood is what they’re rebelling against, not what they’re trying to break in to.
That’s …. why…. they’re…. indie
And the way they give a demonstration of what a “test” film is. Indies will look at that and laugh.
Oh man, what the hell am I doing stuck in the comments section of some comedy writer’s blog.
With the name “rehab lady”. I must have taken a wrong turn somewhere.
Anyway, hiya Richard, oops, I mean Milo.
(I could tell by the way you put “industry” in inverted commas)
(amongst other things)
Well, of course you’re right. It’s very difficult to develop as a screenwriter if you’re rural. No film schools of any kind, no collaborators, no film community, no writing groups, no courses, no… nothin.
A lot of truly great novelists emerged from complete isolation, but I don’t know of any screenwriters who have done that. Who have reached a high level of professionalism without some kind of shared experiences in a screenwriting/film environment.
But novels are sort of written from a different place, maybe more free-flow, they can meander off in any direction whenever they want, and just call it another chapter, and when you’re writing a book, the words are what matter. The reading of the words is what’s telling the story, whereas scripts are merely descriptions of a film, and because of the time factor, it has to be experienced within a two hour framework, so, generally, they emerge from a less open structural foundation. Which is why so many books translate so poorly to film. Novelists can just rabbit on endlessly, even entering into internal states. Screenwriters can’t do that.
(except for Fellini)
(alright alright, and Truffaut)
Mind you, I can’t say for sure, because I’ve never written a book. That’s just the overall impression I get.
Anyway, you have to make conscious choices with regards to your circumstances. If you were giving a rural writer advice, what would it be?
Two choices, either move to where there’s a film community, and really, they can be found in any major city anywhere in the world, or, alternatively, write books.
That’s it. That’s what you’ve got to work with, and that’s what you have to make the best of.
If you want to stay out in the middle of nowhere, just write books instead. And if it’s a great book, who knows, maybe you’ll get a call from someone who wants to buy the rights.
(although, they won’t want you to write the screenplay)
Format is a conscious choice. Whereas the force to write isn’t. It’s like a river, if you block it’s path, it will build up pressure, and find another way.
Decide what is the most viable format for you, holding into consideration the elements that govern your life for the next ten years or so, and block all other pathways to writing.
But also, no one’s calling anyone hacks, just vulnerable and inexperienced.
And really, you can’t expect working writers to put time into helping others with their scripts on a scale like that.
You’re sort of asking people who work as cleaners to come over and clean your house in their spare time.
For free.
Just because they’re cleaners.
They’re giving as much as they can. All of the sites created by working writers exist solely for the purpose of helping and supporting other writers.
A quick note: please do not come here and suggest that people read a certain script on Amazon. It feels spammy to me.
Rehab Lady,
“Two choices, either move to where there’s a film community, and really, they can be found in any major city anywhere in the world, or, alternatively, write books.
That’s it. That’s what you’ve got to work with, and that’s what you have to make the best of.”
I say save some money, then you’ll have some choices. Use the time saving to perfect the craft. Hey, for $10,000, one could guarantee rent for a year. Find a small studio. It would be cheaper if you paid it up front. One who does this BUYS the most important aspect of any mastery. Time. If you’ve covered rent for a year, get a part time job bar-tending, passing out flyers…etc. You’ve got rent covered for a year, the part time cash is for socializing. Okay…, maybe getting a bit to eat, but who’s ever heard of such things.
Regardless, what I'm saying is save some money. Whether close or away from the industry, finding ways to increase your savings will always give you leverage.
Money + Money = Choices.
Rehab Lady and Craig, Fist off I find it a bit cynical that you would assume I was “Richard” simply because I recommended reading his script. I’m not; I’ve never even met the guy although I did give him a positive review. I was simply stating an example of good writing and I apologize if my intentions were misconstrued.
My name isn’t Milo, but Anthony was already taken earlier in the comments. If you can’t find the time to read and offer some advice, that’s fine. I believe there are some of us who might. I’m an insomniac so I have plenty.
My main reason for suggesting what I did is simply this. No one has ever achieved success without a little help and a lot of work. Instead slamming Amazon for their fine print, I simply decided to be a bit more pro-active and lend myself to those I feel could use what I’ve learned. Even by doing something as simple as turning them on to this site; A little knowledge can go a long way.
Unless you’re writing for television, you really don’t need to move to a film community, although it does help in meeting and building industry relationships.(gotta love the internet for widening our opportunities)
As for asking people who work as cleaners to come over and clean my house in their spare time. For free. I like to think of it as doing a little pro-bono work in my spare time. If I can help someone achieve their dream, why not?
I enjoy sharing knowledge and ideas and creating new friendships, but that’s just me.
Anthony Crociata aka Milo (just for the record)
Milo:
I didn’t assume anything. However, promoting specific scripts on Amazon’s site feels spammy to me, and I won’t allow it. My house, my rules.
I posted the exact comment (Milo#41) on John August’s site and got quite a different response.
Check post #29.
I’m not alone.
John is much nicer than I. Notoriously so.
Hey Craig. I’m another Craig. Anyway, I guess I must be the post #29 on John August’s site that Milo mentioned.
I did read the script that he mentioned that was on Amazon, and to be honest with you, I never ever thought about my comments being considered as ‘spam’… but I do definitely see your point.
For my part, I just wanted to see what the quality was like of one of the scripts on the site. I was actually very sad that such a good script had been entered onto this terrible, terrible competition.
I honestly feel sorry for the author that he had to resort to entering his work into this debarkle of a “competition”.
Anywhooo, I hearby promise that I wont mention any Amazon scripts on this site or John’s from this day forth.
Cheers Craig Douglas. C.R.D on John’s site.
I understand where you’re coming from and I’ll it leave to your reader’s own judgement.
You know what they say – “Reasonable men shall differ”.
I’ll stick to the rules from now on.
Craig Douglas:
If John’s okay with it (I think he approves his comments before publishing, so he must be), don’t let that stop you from doing it over there.
Milo:
One of the quirks of running a blog is that you have to set rules on the fly sometimes. You had no way of knowing. Neither did I, frankly, until it arose.
Thanks Craig. Nah, I’m not gonna mention anymore Amazon scripts ever again – be it here or at John’s site. I don’t want to encourage people to use the site or visit it.
I’ve read my one script… and that is it. Experiment over. Cheers.. C.D…
Hi Craig et al:
I’m not a reader of TheArtfulWriter (for no other reason than my ignorance of it), but I was told my my submission to AmazonStudios was being discussed in the forum. While I appreciate the enthusiastic support of Anthony (aka Milo) and others – I didn’t ask to have them promote me on this board and if they had asked me about it, I would have told them not to. I apologize to Craig and other members of the board. Being singled out isn’t fair to the over 1000 artists that have brought their projects to Amazon in the last 8 days. There are a great many talented writers and wonderful scripts on the site today. Regardless of what you think about their business model or terms of use, I strongly encourage everyone to block out a little time, dig past the top ten, and read some of the posted projects over the holiday. I think you’ll likely be pleasantly surprised by what you uncover, and writers like myself will greatly appreciate your patronage and feedback.
Thanks you and warm regards,
–Richard
Richard Stern:
First off, congrats on writing a script to which people are responding.
Second off, my condolences on having it locked up in a bad deal.
I wish you and everyone who has submitted to Amazon nothing but the best. I also wish that Amazon would change the terms of their unfair contract.
I’m not saying what anyone should be doing, no one can tell you what to do, only you know that, I’m just saying, sometimes you have to change the dream.
And it’s not something to be afraid of. Sometimes the next dream turns out to be soooooo much better.
But the problem with saving money is that while you’re living off that money, you’re very “aware” that you’re living on saved money and that it’s going to run out and that’s a whole other pressure to contend with.
You’re better off just setting yourself up in an inexpensive/low pressure lifestyle that you can sustain for a couple of years.
I used to do seasons with the Opera, and that paid well enough to let me write for at least six months of every year.
I called it scaring the crows away. Working for the Opera, that is.
But also, once you get into the habit of a high level of output, it becomes second nature in a way.
It sort of takes on its own life.
And I’m just saying, every major city has a film community. There’s always film makers in arm’s reach. It gives you some people to team up with, and make some mistakes with. Even if only on short films. Collaborating is an aspect of gaining skills in the craft. That’s all I meant.
I don’t think screenwriters can be islands.
A lot of the time, when you’re starting out, you think what you’ve written was FANTASTIC, until you see it on the screen. And then you think, hey, how come I wrote a scene with three women sitting around a table talking about nothing, that goes on for for like fifteen minutes.
It’s important to see what you’ve written played out on film. It’s sort of incorporates … something. The filmic reality of what you’re writing.
It’s an important part of your development.
To actually see it.
And I think that’s why a lot of new writers get frustrated and stuck. They’re maybe ready to learn from the process of collaborating, but they haven’t made any moves to seek it out. Maybe the internet has given the impression of filling that gap. So they think they’re ready to write for Hollywood. Whereas in reality, they’re only just ready to learn from their mistakes.
Thanks, Craig
I’ve exhausted my industry connections in Roswell, GA and I welcome the chance to have my work read by someone other than my wife and younger brother, who both insist that Caddyshack and / or Breakin 2: Electric Bugaloo are the best movie(s) ever made.
If the studios still offered writers internships or if the WGA had an apprentice program, I’d be participating in those instead. I know from the position of a professional this all must seem silly, but for guys like me, this one of only a handful of options, and I’ve resolved to work with my fellow newbies and make the best of it.
On a personal note, Craig, I think it would be wonderful if you could visit the site, read the work and help mentor some of the writers. Forget the prizes, money and all the rest. A kind word, some encouragement and constructive feedback from a pro means the world to someone who is working two jobs and trying to break through. While it’s fun to make this about Amazon and “the industry” it’s really not. It’s about people with days jobs, families, bills and dreams, like me.
Thanks again for the chance to join your forum.
Warm regards,
–Richard
Richard Stern:
I can’t do anything to support what Amazon is doing over there. First off, I just don’t have the time. I have my own professional obligations and my own family. But more importantly, I think Amazon’s deal structure is unfair, and if I go there to add encouragement or feedback, all I’m doing is adding value to a system I think is fundamentally corrupt.
Furthermore, there is 100 years of history of writers without connections who come from places like Roswell, GA (or Freehold, NJ like me) who somehow prevail and make it without the benevolent or malevolent hand of Amazon. I don’t want you to fall victim to the notion that all of these people with day jobs, families, bills and dreams are bereft of hope. You are not. Hope (and results) existed before Amazon, and they will exist without Amazon. I didn’t have the benefit of a professional screenwriter giving me encouragement or feedback, and somehow, I made it through.
I’m living proof. Almost every professional screenwriter is living proof.
All that said, I wish you and everyone else trying to write screenplays nothing but the best. It’s not a zero sum game, and I hope you succeed and become a star. Honestly.
The wife asked me just now “What happens to universe and character rights if you want to go back there and play again in that universe and with those characters on something you’re not going to submit to Amazon?”
Richard,
Respectfully, you’re a hobbyist who treats screenwriting as a lottery ticket. If you want to spend your time writing screenplays then throwing them away, it’s no skin off anyone’s nose. You’re exactly the kind of person the Amazone site was set up to exploit. This isn’t a kind business, and it’s not the job of working writers to flatter you. If you’re serious, you’ll do what you have to to become a screenwriter. If you’re not, you’ll stay in Roswell and keep entering ridiculous contests.
Also, if you’re going to look down your nose at Caddyshack, turning around and asking one of the writers of Scary Movie 3 to mentor you doesn’t make it any easier to take you or your aspirations seriously.
Craig,
I will say this after visiting AMAZON STUDIO. People are talking movies. Hey, word even got to Richard that his name’s been passed trough in conversation. The other aspect I see is that a COMMUNITY is engaging in screenwriting. However, with presumption, these are not writers with credits. THEREFORE I also see uncredited writers, giving other uncredited writers advice. I don’t see any opportunity to truly learn. I mean I wont’ go to school to learn from a student.., anyway.
This I wasn’t able to conclude, would it be a reasonable idea to at least get involved with the prospect of simply creating a buzz, and then disqualifying yourself from taking any offers they give as prizes?
Rehab Lady,
Collaboration — I believe is very important. Regardless, in screenwriting, it is inevitable.
My concern was that it seemed that you provided (us?) with a fork in the road. Either screen-write here, or writer novels somewhere over the rainbow. Rainbows aside, I felt it important to clarify that with financial leverage, an aspiring screenwriter could use all resources presented to achieve their dreams. This is important in reality because if most had such leverage, then they would already be relocating. Therefore the underling meaning in what I’m saying is, if you do decide to move, save some money first.
This issue brings I believe an important point. Currently I have the benefit of time. Yes it had its cost. With this time, however, I’m in control of my production cycle, and progress. Not to mention that I’m meeting contacts, who I can build with because there is no interruptions in my schedule. I have very little deadlines to make, either in opera (congrats by the way), or any other pursuit of monetary gain.
If an aspiring writer wants to make a bold move, it would benefit them if they did so in a situation where they have BOUGHT themselves time. Then as you’ve said, they can find a lower pressure lifestyle. But starting off with a year of free time? It’s at least worth considering. OF COUSRE I too am not attempting to give anyone advice, just another perspective.
Dear Craig Mazin,
Why are you so offended/pissed off by this Amazon deal? It’s not like it’s directed at you or guys like you—i.e., people already successful in the Hollywood establishment (“The Club”). It’s for the benefit of Joe Schmoes in Idaho (“Schmidaho”), who, no matter how good they are, will never get their material looked at by the people who run The Club unless they happen to be related to/married to/best buddies with/sleeping with someone who runs The Club or knows someone who runs it (I’m a lowly employee for The Club and I’ve seen someone get a writing deal because he/she is buddies with a creative exec. This person brought nothing to the table: no writing sample; no idea; just the fact that he/she had a buddy who’s a creative exec. And that exec also gave this person an idea to write – so he/she couldn’t even come up with their own idea after they got the deal). But let’s say Schmidaho does somehow miraculously get someone who runs The Club to look at their material; Schmidaho is still going to have to sign a “Standard Industry Release Form” or else not have his/her material looked at. Which basically means Schmidaho is signing his/her material over to The Club. After which The Club can pass on said material but still have it “on file” which means they’ve obtained it FOR FREE (an aspect of the Amazon deal that seems to piss you off in particular) and use it at any time in the future without giving compensation/credit or any of the other good stuff members of The Club get from WGA etc. (another aspect of the Amazon deal that seems to piss you off in particular). I don’t know Craig, you look like a really nice guy in your IMDB photos so maybe I’m doing you an injustice here (and I apologize in advance if I am), but maybe you’re pissed off by the Amazon deal because it’s aimed at Schmidaho who cannot get into The Club and you don’t like the idea that Schmidaho might get a job you could’ve had. I mean, as you say, Amazon does have a boatload of dough (paraphrasing) but instead of pouring it into The Club, whose controllers will then just hire a guy like you and pay you the next step up from whatever your current quote is (you’re no John August so I doubt it’s 1.5 mil but you’re probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 300k to 500k for a First Draft, what with Hangover II now in your repertoire), Amazon is throwing this “crazy get-a-free-option” deal at Schmidaho. And I ask you, at this stage of his/her career (which is basically writing for nobody and nothing in their little room on their little farm in the middle of a wheat field), do you really think Schmidaho gives a crap about all those awesome WGA etc. benefits? Of course not! All Schmidaho wants at this stage is to have his/her material seen/heard/acknowledged; and while I agree that the Amazon deal is no guarantee of any of those things, from my own experiences as a struggling writer slaving away as a lowly employee of The Club, it’s more than The Club is offering or will ever offer. The Club is not interested in helping Schmidaho push his wagon out of the mud, only jumping on that wagon once Schmidaho has got it rolling. Only after Schmidaho proves himself and does something that grabs the world’s/The Club’s attention (unless he’s the “person” with the best buddy creative exec., in which case he need bring nothing to the table to get a deal) will the vultures who run The Club come circling – and not because they now want to help Schmidaho, but because they smell money and want to get their hands on it. So yeah, the Amazon deal sucks, but it’s the only deal Schmidaho has a shot at.
Bob The Lowly Club Employee:
You commented before, and I responded. I removed your last comment at your request. I see you’re back. I’m leaving this one up.
You literally got nothing right in your comment. Nothing.
Richard Stern:
I am one of the people who read your script, and yes, I think it’s terrific. I am also one of the people who is mortified that you entered it into this Amazon thing in the first place.
With the GREATEST OF RESPECT: (And I promise, I’m not trying to be a nasty smart a–) Look at all the positive word of mouth that your script has garnered in such an incredibly short amount of time. Most of that interest being from people HORRIFIED that you entered such a wonderful piece in this particular competition. Yet you sight your reason for entering the Amazon competition as, “I have exhausted all my industry contacts in Roswell, GA?”
I’m sorry: But WHAT industry contacts in Roswell? All 2 of them?
If your work has generated THIS MUCH INTEREST despite the fact that you have entered it in the Amazon thing, then I can only IMAGINE what might have happened had you put your efforts into getting a HOLLYWOOD AGENT to read it, or in entering the NUMEROUS LEGITIMATE SCREENWRITING COMPETITIONS out there…?
I honestly think you would have BLOWN AWAY the competition in these contests, and you would have had AGENTS knocking at your door based on the strength of your screenplay.
Yes, EVERYONE tells you that nobody will read your work. But that’s not true: You have to be CREATIVE. You have to give them reasons to want to read your work, you have to be persistent… But ultimately, cream rises to the top, and I’m telling you, your script would have been eventually noticed… I have no doubts…
But now, unfortunately, you are stuck and your wonderful work can go nowhere for atleast 18 months. That is, unless you win the Amazon thing.
I sincerely hope you do win… But I wouldn’t hold my breath..
Bob The Lowly Club Employee:
It’s called a Return Key. Get to know it.
And if that’s an example of your writing, I know why you can’t break in. “Schmidaho.” Groan.
@Craig Totally understand and respect your viewpoint, but it is the viewpoint of an established writer. In the 100 years of writers, every generation has faced different opportunities and realities in the marketplace. From the days of the studio system to the red hot spec market of the 90s to today. New writers have always had to adapt and overcome – and find their own paths into the business. Mine will undoubtedly be different than yours, just as yours was different from Bill Goldman’s.
@Ray I am writer with 10 completed scripts that are of equal or better quality to the one that is on AMAZON. It was a personal and professional decision placing a script on that site. If people like the way I write, I have many more projects that I can bring to market. My goal is not to sell a script, but to get paid to write. I’m sure you can appreciate the difference.
Richard Stern:
Completely agree with your first paragraph, with one caveat. Not since the studio system has there been such a bad way in for writers. If you can successfully exploit Amazon to your advantage without getting burned (and something tells me that with the readership of this blog, you might already be on your way to doing that), then I salute you. I certainly hope you can.
Bob T.,
I guess someone had to say it. Although there is a good point on cousins, and late grandfathers, exec.’s wife…, or something like that.
With that said we should all take “KNOWING SOMEONE” with a bit more consideration. Not all “he knew somebody” situations deal with se*, money or family.
Many successful people are chased because of their leverage. That would also make me a tad bit annoyed. Best thing to do (as it applies to various desired positions) is not getting to KNOW the people, but getting them to trust in you being accountable.
Again it’s not always about family, se*, or money. Trust is a big factor when everyone’s knocking on your door for something.
@Richard Stern –
If you don’t mind my asking, before entering the Amazon competition, did you do any of the following?
Submit to any of the numerous management firms with open submission policies? (Madhouse leaps to mind.) Enter the Nicholls and Austin Film Festival contests, among many others? Call any assistant at any literary agency or management firm in LA? Assistants are desperate to find their own clients.
I’m just wondering what options you exhausted before turning to Amazon. Best of luck to you!
In Richards’s defense, he did not ask me to mention him on this board. He had no Idea. I wasn’t trying to promote anything, especially this contest. I simply suggested it in the same way I would a good film or novel, because I found it entertaining. I got reprimanded, but I did post before the rule and I won’t be recommending anyone else.
That said, I’m glad I did it. Who knows maybe it will lead to him getting representation as a writing sample. Most first time options never get green lit anyway, but if the talent is there it just might lead to work. In this business, you never know. I don’t think he’ll be giving anything else away to Amazon now that he knows there are better avenues that he wasn’t previously aware of. Maybe his resources were limited, I don’t know, but I’ve never heard of Roswell GA till recently.
Your welcome Richard – Good luck with your new career, I’m glad I could help.
“My goal is not to sell a script, but to get paid to write.” Well, bravo right there.
Way up top I mentioned this might be okay for “trunk stories”, and if you’re (the plural version there, not the singular) really a writer with the highly-important thought process you (singular this time) showed right there, then you’ve (plural again) got them.
But then I suddenly started wondering about the universe/character implications, and now I’m not even sure about that. I haven’t read your script, but apparently you can write from the opinion of a few folks here.
So you get excited again by the positive feedback, run off and write a whole new script in that universe and with those characters, but different plot and even better this time, and now it gets made without Amazon over at GiantStudio, Inc, and makes $150M at the theaters. (Congrats on that, btw.
)
Can Amazon take your old script, sell it for 7 figures to competitor (to your studio, GSI) MegaStudio Inc (paying you $200k), MSI hires Rossio and Elliott with instructions to gut the script, but keep the universe and characters and make a sequel to your smash hit you sold without them?
This business of thinking it’s about “knowing someone”, that’s some concocted fantasy escape from not dealing with the fact that you have to be able to write viable scripts.
And I don’t think any films are going to come out of this. I think Amazon will just pull the plug. And so they should.
The sooner the better. For them. And everyone else.
Sometimes you just have to accept something was a bad idea, and move on.
And so far the situation is reversible.
All they have to do is put up a notice that says they’re redesigning their contest, due to feedback, and they’ll post more information soon.
And hey presto. Problem solved.
Everybody’s happy again.
Done.
They get their image back. And writers get their lives back.
Hurry up Amazon.
You have to see your chance and make a run for it. That brief window of opportunity, that you thought you were offering them, may now be your only chance to survive.
Run… as … fast… as… you…can…
Come to think of it, if GSI are pre-conversion Grinches, then you could find yourself competing against yourself for the sequel when they buy the original with those characters and universe from Amazon. . .or threaten to do so in negotiations.
A couple days ago I threw up a script as a joke (I think it’s still linked earlier in this thread). It’s basically two characters repeating the same two lines of bad dialogue over and over again for 160 pages. Clearly not a serious entry. At Rehab Lady’s suggestion, I sent Amazon an email asking if I could have the script removed.
Here’s the Amazon response:
“Hello Josh,
I’m sorry to hear you want to withdraw your movie from the contest you submitted it for. I’m forwarding your request to the contests team who will ensure the scripts and test movies you requested will be removed from consideration for the contests you requested.
Even though you will not to be considered for contest awards, Amazon Studios still retains the rights to your work described in the Development Agreement you agreed to when you uploaded your scripts or test movies.”
This would be chilling if I’d actually submitted a real screenplay. I wish the best to those who entered but this is seriously Draconian.
–Josh
Even from a newby perspective the Amazon deal has “Run! Run for your professional life!” feel all over it. The entire deal is a predatory agenda looking to exploit the uninformed yet hopeful masses.
But here’s the thing that I don’t get, it didn’t have to be this way. Amazon could have put something wonderful together given their resources…
Instead, they set a trap.
I can’t see how any writer, of any caliber or clout, would put themselves at risk like this in belief that this literary gang-bang is going to turn into a happy marriage of studio and creative.
Amazon just tried to slap all of us in the face and make us pay for dinner.
You know how Amazon Studios could make this thing acceptable?
Two buttons at the bottom of the upload form:
UPLOAD/CONTEST ENTRY/OPTION
UPLOAD/NO CONTEST ENTRY/NO OPTION
-Ted
Ted–
They’re a business –what’s in it for them on the second option?
They’ve been wrong before on some business decisions in the past and they’ll be wrong again on some business decisions in the future. . .but presumably they don’t think they are doing this as a public service.
Put it this way –is there any way they can even hope to break even on this thing if they don’t find at least a few people to take advantage of compared to what those writers would get on their own?
That’s the whole concept, right? I’ll be your agent, but at much worse terms than any reputable agent would dream of offering you.
They can’t possibly be so deluded as to believe they are going to make this even break-even for them on volume of marketable scripts. It’s got to be on profit-margin on those few (they hope) are marketable. There is only one place that margin can come from –out of the writer’s pocket.
Jeff Bezos surely has heard of Sturgeon’s Law.
BWAHAHA!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5jDGvNiQR4&feature=player_embedded
Geo –
There’s a lot of people who’ve already uploaded stuff to AS. I have to imagine that some of ‘em understood the option agreement, and decided the possible upside outweighed the certain downside. Those who didn’t read the option agreement must be focused on the upside only.
Call me cynical, but I don’t think human nature would change if AS added a “No Option/No Contest” button.
What it would do is, allow Amazon Studios to say “We are providing aspiring screenwriters and filmmakers the world over with a community where they can workshop their material, and gain access to the industry through our contests.”
-Ted
Ted–
Your point on human nature is well-taken, but let me ask you this. . . . Are you confident that the opt-out crowd wouldn’t skew significantly higher towards more (relatively) experienced writers and higher-quality scripts than the opt-in crowd?
Because if you’re not, and if you agree that the business model relies on finding the one or two needles in a haystack to pay the freight for the whole exercise, then that could be deadly.
Na, it needs to disappear all together. The whole thing gone. It’s all bad.
bad bad bad bad bad
Even ones agreeing to an option are doing it blindly.
-Get noticed
-Win money
-Get your film made
How can anyone say no to that. Precisely, they can’t.
But it’s alright, I’ve figured out what’s going to happen. Clear as day.
They’ll hand out their first round prize. And then one writer will be jumping up and down:
woo-hoo!! I won!! I won!!
And the remaining three thousand will be angry, Real angry. They didn’t just lose a contest, they lost a whole script. Worse, they lost a dream. They lost what Amazon led them to believe was their one chance. The backlash will be truly memorable.
There will be writers holding signs outside Amazon that read:
AMAZON EXPLOITS WRITERS.
and that will be the beginning of their end.
McDonalds never recovered from the bad press over pulling down rainforests to feed burgers either.
And then there will be a boycott. Oh c’mon. What’s a fight without a boycott.
And then Reuters will be all over it. World Press. Never overlook the fact that journos are writers too.
I can’t believe the poetry.
Reuters: AMAZON BUILDS EMPIRE ON THE POWER OF THE PEN, ONLY TO HAVE IT TURNED AGAINST THEM
Geo –
Okay, that’s where we disagree. I assume that Amazon Studios’ business model is sustainable for quite some time even if doesn’t yield a project sale (screenplay or film) to a studio, let alone a produced motion picture. I think Amazon Studios’ goal is to create the social network for aspiring screenwriters and filmmakers. The contests and WB first look deal are necessary in order to encourage and ensure people participate, but the reason people participate is not necessarily the reason Amazon Studios exists.
If you see what I mean. The reason people want to participate in the production of movies and television shows is not the same as the reason studios and networks finance and distribute movies and television shows. The reason people want to participate on Facebook is not the same as the reason Facebook generates revenue (truth to tell, I really don’t understand how Facebook generates revenue. But I do know people who cancel social engagements so they can harvest their Farmville crops).
-Ted
rehab lady:
You’re Connie. We get it. Stop.
@Richard Stern – congratulations again. I read it yesterday off Amazon and commented on it. It’s truly FINE WORK. Took me back to my comic days.
The buzz and feedback off Amazon and Twitter are testimony of your talent. Now that you know, take your next work to a manager, not Amazon. Good luck, man!
p.s. I love your responses to this blog. I connect with everything you said because I am in the same hot seat, where you gotta make a decision. [I got a monster list of 300 managers, producers and agents which has done me no good yet.] My decision though is to stay on the boat, yours is to swim it out. I respect you for that.
@Craig Mazin – 1) Thank you for saving my script from Amazon. You gave voice to my fears. 2) @Richard Stern was reasonable to ask for your feedback. Good-but-undiscovered writers like he and I could use that kind of blessing but I understand and respect your reticence. A man like you going to Amazon to give out your 2-cents would be like endorsing Amazon and creating more frenzy and damage. I see it from your perspective.
@Ray Motess – I read @Richard Stern script and I can say he is no hobbyist. This guy is a true gem. Shame on you for speaking out of your A@@ because he took a path he is comfortable with. Shame on you for down-ning another writer.
@all of you- Writers today are not teenagers living off of stipends. We are professionals, family people, grown-ups with real financial obligations. We have no exposure to Hollywood, just pen + paper + dream. Amazon might just be that opportunity for some. Myself, I’ll wait for a better one. Meanwhile, I’ll support every writer on there because sometimes people forget they are good. We all lose faith at times. So, stop the condescending of fellow writers or their choices. Give all fellow writers your support, offer to read their work and pass on a contact..
@me – I started writing at the age of 6, naturally. All my life people told me that most writers are homeless. I am a database programmer now but I am writing again. I went to Zoetrope, read others work and got mine read. From newbies to pros, all made me better. Part of being a good writer is reading from other writers whether they are good or bad. It gives you a sense of what works or doesn’t. I finally wrote three great scripts (based on my opinion and opinion of select few people) and sent out 100s of query letters to interesting people off of the monster list. I either got no responses or ” sorry got something similar”.
I gotta keep trying
The reason Amazon Studios exists is the same as the reason Jonestown existed.
Some nutjob.
JR,
The Amazon contest is a scam. If you’re serious enough to write a good script, you should be serious enough to figure out what to do with it. Just writing a great script then throwing it into an incinerator is not the sort of behavior that should be supported or applauded. This is no way to enter the business, and no matter how good a writer you are, if you fall for this scam, you’re not serious enough. Shame on YOU for confusing amateurishness with professionalism. On the subject of asking pros to read random screenplays by complete strangers, that’s even more ignorant. That’s not how it works. You don’t get handed these things on a platter. You have to work for them, and the work begins when you’ve finished a script.
Ted,
Facebook really doesn’t generate revenue, at least not the way other sites do. I’ve read that Facebook’s advertising has a 0.07% click through rate, far less than other networking sites.
Facebook has survived by selling pieces of the company to investors. Look for an IPO soon.
My guess is that Bob is wrong about Craig– don’t know him, but I think anyone who actually takes the time to study up and vote on WGA issues the way he does (even though he has his own representation and doesn’t need to worry as much about guild protection) has the overall profession and workforce in mind beyond his own personal success.
However, in my opinion Bob is right about “The Club.” To say it all boils down to talent and hard work is complete B.S., and it is what it is and if you really love writing you have to stick with it and do what you love, but there are no guarantees. There are people who are very talented that will never get their break, and it won’t be because they didn’t try. Hell, there are talented writers who did get their break and thanks to the writers strike, the economic meltdown, and an ever changing landscape, they are having to work their asses off to get that break again. Despite that, the Amazon deal is a scam.
Ted–
I think we’ll have to agree to disagree until some more data points show up that might let one of us evolve their thinking on the matter.
I look at that contract, and I think there is no reason for it to be that one sided if the business model isn’t aimed for at least break-even on the financials in the short to mid-term.
It would have been easy-peasy for them to make the option terms more-or-less similar to what a top-flight agent might get for selling something marketable (and having the experience to recognize just how marketable a given script might be).
I do think they think today they are in it for the long run, or there would be no reason to stipulate a forever option on the co-marketing. That’s long-term thinking right there, and hoping someone in their early stable hits it big later.
Or maybe it is just a corporate lawyer being super-anal, as lawyers get paid to do (and the better the lawyer, the more they are). . . but the client needs to be more sophisticated than his lawyer on the goals. Understand the lawyer’s point? Sure. Tell the lawyer “Yeah, I get it, but that won’t go where we are aiming for here, thanks anyway.”
One of the dangers of a really good lawyer is when they don’t have a really good lawyer on the other side negotiating against them. They just run wild in those situations without that opposition making the opposing case, in my experience. The client usually isn’t going to provide that level of check.
I once worked, at a non-profit no less, for a good lawyer. My goodness he alienated practically every mom-and-pop partner we ever had (rarely partnered more than once, after the first experience had run its course), because he could never restrain himself from getting every little advantage to the absolute maximum in the absence of experienced opposition making sure he didn’t go a (or two or three) bridge too far.
“Fiduciary responsibility” he’d intone piously, over the tears and hear-pulling around him, and go on merrily ruining the prospects of the organization to have long-term partners.
I am not a working screenwriter, and just entered the Amazon contest with my script Brawlers, Inc.
Ok, it doesn’t have the WGA protections, but you have to look at it from the other side. Myself, I did try the script the WGA way, and even talked a WGA signatory agent in Newport Beach into sending it out. Went nowhere of course. Also tried the “Pay us $50 to read your script, we have contacts” route on various website, went nowhere also. Got frustrated, made an educational games website instead (FunBasedLearning.com) where I can have complete creative control and can publish whenever I want and have helped many kids with 20 million page views since the site went live 2005. Only make a few grand a year, but it’s a nice way to still help and touch the world while being home raising kids.
I’m convinced it’s just too hard trying to break into Hollywood, hence the educational games website.
If someone somehow makes the Brawlers Inc. movie and I never see a dime, that is ok with me, at least someone gets to enjoy all my hard work and have fun with the movie.
@Ray Motess – State your case on Amazon, then live and let live.
I don’t label people for taking a path I wouldn’t advise. I am an adult onto myself and I am grown enough to state my case, while respecting other people’s opinions and choices. To do otherwise is AMATEURISH and quite CHILDISH.
I didn’t disagree with what you said up until the point you insult people you don’t know without having read their work. I can throw and expensive Manolo down a chimney if I want to. It is my Manolo, not yours. Someone else can throw their script in the incinerator. That is their script, not yours.
To call people names for doing whatever the hell they want with their stuff or their lives is silly on your part. Who gets to judge you and your choices?
It’s audacious and naive to think:
“If you are good and you try really really hard, you will make it.”
Like doesn’t work like this. All anyone can do is do their best and be happy that they tried.
A grain of effort and a spoonful of luck, is what it is all about.
Donald Trump would say that “any publicity is good publicity.”
Many bad scripts have been written and made into films. Really bad ones. But they were made. How???
Many celebrities who call themselves actors are talentless but they either have appealing faces or lead shameless lifestyles.
So, it is not all in the effort or the talent. It’s being at the right place, knowing the right people and having the motivation to succeed no matter what.
The law of osmosis is such that many good writers will not be discovered.
And as much as I don’t like the Amazon idea, the fact remains that many of us now know of @Richard Stern because he wrote a strong piece and took a leap of faith. That leap of faith, is his own destiny.
This buzz is one he can put in a query letter and advance his next masterpiece. I won’t take that route because it’s not right for me. It may well be right for him.
For all it’s worth, constructive criticism on my work has made me really good. It made me brave enough to even be writing through my thanksgiving and every night I return from work.
Family members told me I couldn’t do it. Strangers told me I could. This is why I will read any newby’s work and vote for fellow writers.
I was deserving of encouragements, so are they.
Well, Ted’s pretty much right, in that Amazon is acting in ignorance. They have no understanding of the film making process, and because of that, naively think they can combine that process with social networking.
To suggest that people should go out and make films for them. I mean, films, even macro budget films take an enormous amount of input. They haven’t factored reality into it, because they have no knowledge of that reality.
Putting a crew together is an act of passion, not a test. You’ll never motivate a crew for the sake of a “test”.
They seriously haven’t done their homework, and their assumption of entitlement is grotesque. They’re overestimating their significance because they can afford to.
They can’t for a minute see how obscene it is to have rights over thousands of unproduced scripts for no reason other than they think it might at some stage serve them.
I hope bad press will put the screws on this, and if they think they’re immune to it, well, then they deserve everything they get. Blind monopolies are dangerous, it’s good for everyone when they lose ground. This will follow a natural process, that’s what I predict.
And the topic is a bit exhausted for me. I’m bored with it. Amazon Studios is already boring.
And the weekend is approaching and I’ve got something more fun than Farmville lined up.
I would guess it is easier to get someone to watch a funny You Tube video than to get someone to read a script. One way to go might be to make a few You Tube videos to gain publicity. Best case – you don’t even need anyone anymore, you can make over $100,000 per year like the top 3 or 4 indie YouTube video makers (ex. the “How to be Emo” guy). Mediocre case – video is good, some bored industry exec sees it, might ask if you have anything more. Worst case – no one likes it, but you might get some feedback from viewers about what they did or didn’t like (and from yourself watching and making it) to learn to do better.
Just a thought from someone with no credentials whatsoever, but who’s thought about it awhile.
I don’t think about the internet too much. Remember Pokemon?
The good thing about the viral thing is that it’s unpredictable.
But it’s been sweet to see so many diverse writers and film makers all united and brought together over this.
So something good did come out of it afterall.
Amazing how much common ground there is despite genre.
Genre is obviously only script deep.
The facts are this: by the latest figures, there are well over 50,000 scripts registered each year at the Writers Guild of America.
Nearly EVERY BOOK, every article, that I’ve ever read from professional AGENTS, PRODUCERS, READERS and STUDIO BOSSES says this:
“The problem is, that unfortunately 99% of these scripts are just terrible, and have no chance of even having someone read past page 10.”
ALL the professionals in the industry say this. Yet all the amateurs cry poor and say that they’re not getting a foot in the door because of ‘ZERO OPPORTUNITIES” and the ‘boys club” that is Hollywood.
How about this? “You’re actually just not a good writer. You don’t actually have any real talent or ability, and you are kidding yourself that you do.”
Screenwriting is a very specialized, very difficult, PROFESSIONAL job. And just because you can pick up a pen and paper, or whack a few words into a computer, how does that suddenly magically make you a capabable screenwriter?
Just because you watched “E.R” for ten seasons, doesn’t some how miraculously make you a doctor! Yet, I think that just because people watch TV and movies everyday, that people think, “Oh, I could write a film… I mean, how hard could it be?”
Well, I’m sorry… It IS hard… It does take a lot of skill and talent… and it is an extraordinarily specialized profession…
Perhaps… just perhaps… you’re family and friends don’t support you’re writing endeavors because they know YOU ARE TERRIBLE AT IT? Perhaps the agencies and production companies aren’t bothering to read your script/s because your query letter to them was full of typos, poorly written, and they just figured… “Oh, my God… If this person can’t even write a decent query letter, then why should I even bother to read his crappy script?”
I apologize for the HARSHNESS of this post, but I honestly think that, unfortunately, the MAJORITY of people who want to become screenwriters are KIDDING THEMSELVES, and are completely delusional regarding their chances, talent and abilities.
And in answer to the obvious questions that people are going to ask of me: No, I am not a professional writer. No, I have never had any scripts optioned. And “yes”, I do someday hope to become a professional screenwriter. BUT, I will not ever blame my lack of success (if that’s how it goes) on the fact that OTHER PEOPLE didn’t give me an opportunity, and that OTHER PEOPLE didn’t believe in me….
If I fail… it will simply be….
“You know what? Maybe I wasn’t good enough. Maybe I wasn’t cut out for this game.”
Anyway. Good luck to EVERYONE with your writing dreams. I sincerely mean that…
Just, PLEASE stop blaming other people for your lack of success…
JR,
You can do anything you want with your script. I don’t care. What I care about is amateurs who whine about how hard it is to break into the business without any contacts when that’s what almost all of us had to do. If it’s too hard for you, tough shit. It’s a profession, and it’s a very hard one to break into. If you’re not willing to go the distance to break into it, your laments are meaningless to me. Get a safe job. Live a safe life. You’ll be much happier. But if you want to be a professional screenwriter, write a lot of great scripts, then move to LA, and make it the focus of your life. That’s what you’d do if you actually thought of this as a profession, instead of a fantasy. Nobody thinks they’ll become a doctor by entering a contest and taking a shortcut. Nobody tries to become an architect by sitting at home and drawing pictures of houses. If you don’t respect this profession enough to treat it AS a profession, why should anyone respect your aspiration?
@C.R.D – your ranting is exceedingly caustic and unnecessary. I don’t see anyone on this blog complaining. I see people exchanging information, a lot of it personal observations, many of which are quite meritorious.
I’ll have you know that I am a great writer and have been such since the age of 6. I have won literary competitions throughout my childhood, competing against older kids.
My family supported my writing endeavors as long as it was for a hobby. They wanted me to be a physician, not a writer. They don’t see that as a viable or respectable career.
So, when someone says you are no good, it is by no means a measure of who you are or what you can accomplish, it’s simply an assessment of their own hang-ups/limitations.
My limitations now in getting discovered is that I do not know anyone in the film industry and that I may have to move to NY or CA or GA or even Canada. The film industry is mostly nonexistent in FL.
So, just sending out query letters will not work.
@Rai Motess – I agree with you 100%
I now understand what were trying to say. I apologize for having been harsh. I am seriously limited in FL, professionally and socially. I am moving to Atlanta mid next year. Perhaps from there, I can build enough contacts before I move to CA.
Dear @ J.R.R TOLKIEN! (alias @ J.R)
Firstly, who are you to talk about RANTINGS?! When every post that you make on this forum, is indeed, like reading a FULL J.R.R TOLKIEN novel!
Just go back through this forum and have at look at my few entries compared to your opening rolling credits of Starwars entries at each and every post!
Secondly: What did I say in my last post that was NASTY or caustic? NOT-ONE-THING. Sensitive much are ya?
Thirdly: I didn’t MENTION or disrespect ONE PERSON by name in my entry… It’s little wonder that Ray thinks you’re a tool…
Anyway… “YES, J.R — you are a great writer!” I look forward to seeing your first produced script up on the big screen in the near future…
You are EXACTLY the sort of person I was talking about. You are delusional, and you are in denial. Stop making excuses for your lack of success and get on with it. If you’re that good, well then WHY the hell haven’t I seen one of your movies yet?!
P.S: Stop sniffing the glue… it’s bad for you… And go away to the Amazon forum where they actually ENJOY hearing from people like you….
Big smiles. Take care. C.R.D
P.S: Sorry to drag you into this Ray… But I kinda thought you wouldn’t mind….?
@C.R.D – whatever. You’re a pathetic a-hole
Besides, I never said I have no success. I said I haven’t broken in yet…. Big difference. But then again, it is alright for now. there are no beef between @Ray Motess and I. Don’t get your shorts twisted, idiot.
Amazon Studios has nothing on me. But I will support my fellow writers there.
So… C.R.D – stop snorting then you might have more to say.
Hey, quit it. Na. Just. Na. Just quit it.
Take your bloodshed over to the Amazon forum. whatever, whatever, who cares, not me.
(The whole anonytard fighting thing fizzled along with msn.)
I know. Let’s meet back here in…18 months. What’s the date. Let’s say, around the middle of… 2012.
And we’ll talk about it some more then.
Hang on a sec… I’ve… I’ve just gotta put down this white powder that I’m snorting… Okay… Ready?… Yep, NOW I’m ready to respond to J.Rs dazzling “come back”… Which was… “C.R.D – whatever. You’re a pathetic a-hole.”
Ooooooooooo! Nice come back! An example of your literary prowess? I’m impressed!
Can’t wait for your first script to hit the screens based on the strength of THAT response!
Anyway, I didn’t want for this to get personal, but you were the one who trashed me in the first place, so I was only responding to your taunt.
Good luck with making the move from programmer to script writer. I wish you all the success in the world… Seriously. And when you make it big time… come back on this forum and let Craig Mazin know what an absolute loser I am…
I’ll be genuinely happy for you, and will eat humble pie. Cheers. CRD.
@C.R.D – Hmmm… I kinda like this challenge. I do. So, hugs and kisses.
@C.R.D and @Rehab Lady – You too are so hilarious! Thanks for the laugh.
We are all passionate people but we are happy and honest people. That counts big.
uhhh.. ahem… don’t keep all the white stuff to yourself! Girl’s gotta have fun too
Guys, please cut it out. Stick to the topic, and be civil.
Anyway, good news, I’ve just heard back. Amazon Studios is in fact already in breach of copyright by publishing these works.
CRD–
If a slush-pile reader can’t tell hopeless crap by page 10, then they have no business reading a slush-pile. That’s a generous assessment, really. If it took them to page 10 to understand it is hopeless crap, then they are a little slow for the gig, IMHO.
Nothing Amazon can or will do will change that.
It may, by workshopping, get some people to the point where they will no longer be writing hopeless crap in the first 10 pages, but that is a different (yet still worthy) issue.
Oh dear geo, how can you say you’re not a writer, but at the same time feel entitled to tell writers how to think.
These awful words you’re using, hopeless crap, eew.
You know, I really do believe that anyone looking at my early scripts could have described them as hopeless crap.
Lucky I was never put in that position, so I didn’t get scared, or, you know, discouraged.
Stop the awful attacks. I think this thread should be closed for a while. Let it cool off. Block the river, let all that flow over to Amazon’s boards.
They did this, they should deal with it.
Eh, that makes slush-pile readers sound like heartless bastiches. The truth is slush-pile readers live to get to page 11 with something even approaching a song in their heart, even if it doesn’t pay off in the end.
And RL, not being a writer doesn’t mean I’m not a *reader*. Other than a few belly-button gazing exercizes, commercial is satisfying the audience not the brotherhood.
You may have a higher standard for ‘hopeless crap’ than I do, for that matter. I mean really, really hopeless. And that’s the vast majority of any slush-pile. I’m not talking about “hey, there’s a little bit of talent here that if they keep at it, etc.” I mean those particular pages you’re looking at are just *hopeless*. If there was any hint of talent *at what they were looking at* they likely would have made it to page 11. It is not the slush-pile reader’s job to predict the future, and be an optimist. That’s what workshopping and writers groups are for.
Or to say it another way, it does not take a writer to tell a writer “this sucks”, and be 100% correct.
It often will take a writer to tell a writer why this sucks. But even then it is more likely to take a writer to tell a writer why this doesn’t suck, but it still doesn’t quite work, and, maybe, I think, here’s why.
Btw, I’ve actually read a $ paying contest slush-pile. Anybody else in this thread? Well, come to think of it, everyone can at Amazon these days, so no biggie.
But more importantly than that, I’ve attended quite a few sessions over the last 17 years of other people who do it for a living, year after year. Yeah, there is a lot of eye-rolling at the kind of crap they live with every day, day after day. . . but you should see their eyes light up when they describe the times they found the not-garbage. Taking out the garbage isn’t the job –finding the not-garbage is the job.
Nup. Not even close.
And still going on about the hopeless crap.
Writers don’t go around telling each other they suck. And what’s all this about “readers”.
Writers write for an audience, not for anyone one else.
And geo, you didn’t answer my question, if you’re not a writer, then why do you think you should have a say in what’s good for writers.
I really think this thread should be closed. I actually am going away for a few days and I don’t want to come back here and see a trail of blood stains.
This blog strayed somewhat but…
@RL – with all respect, I believe that @Geo has answered your question…
It doesn’t take a writer to discern quality from garbage.
I am a bad cook. I burn anything I try to cook but I certainly know good food from bad food. I pay for it.
Most of us are not musicians but we all can appreciate good music.
You can’t tell a cook how to cook or a musician how to make music or a painter how to paint… but you can tell good from bad… or add more salt… or spice this up!
Essentially, the general audience is the consumer. They get to dictate what they want to see and that is based on their appreciation of the work.
Most of us writer hand our work over to a friend, mother, father, sister… anyone who can read. If they get it, we know we’ve conveyed what we meant to convey. If our readers are left confused, then we haven’t done our job.
There is no snobbing about this.
After all is said and done…
I would rather have a writer comment on my work than a regular Joe. The reason being that, from my experience of having written three screenplays, the writers shed more clarity into what elements don’t work. More importantly, he/she gave me alternative scenarios that might work. And you pick up tips and tricks too, like what is a re-write. I didn’t know about re-writes until I worked with writers.
All in all, I didn’t find a degree of deviation between a writer and a regular Joe in the ability to spot BLATANT weaknesses.
Good night all. God bless.
Hollywood Reporter classified used to be full of ads like this. HW finally banned them.
jesus freaking christ!!! I feel like the dumbest bastard in the world right now!!! submitted a decent script thinking it was only a contest. a script that can be easily modified and made into something else. The worst of it is I can’t delete my script or account for the next 18 months…really. Should I even bother with an attorney???
You can delete the account and remove your script, Mr. S, I was reading a post by someone who said on either this site or John August’s site that he did just that, AND he quoted Amazon’s email to him regarding his closing of his account. (read through both sites and you’ll find the post I’m talking about)
Amazon’s email to him did say something like: “We (Amazon) STILL hold the exclusive rights to your work even though you’ve REMOVED it from our site.”
But if I were you I’d just pull it from the site. How would Amazon take action against you for removing your own work, which they never paid you one penny for in the first place? Good luck…
It was post #73 on the above board that I was talking about Mr. S.
Yes, Amazon SAY they still own the rights to your REMOVED WORK. But I’d love to see them hold that one up in court… I don’t think they’d have a leg to stand on…Just my opinion of course…
Just tell them that you’re not sure who uploaded it. That you’ve been going through a difficult divorce, so it may have been your ex wife.
Or, that you were smoking a lot of crystal at the time, obviously not entirely of sound mind, and that you’ve now sobered up.
The Amazon Studios Development Agreement is what’s known as a “cohesion contract.” A cohesion contract is “imposed and drafted by the party of superior bargaining strength” and “relegates to the subscribing party only the opportunity to adhere to the contract or reject it.” (Discover Bank). If you’ve ever tried to switch mobile-phone providers, but were turned back by the 200 dollar early-cancellation fee, then you’ve come face-to-face with a binding clause in a cohesion contract you signed without fully reading.
Unfortunately for us little people, cohesion contracts are ubiquitous and generally legal, absent a few notable exceptions.
True, a court may find that the terms of the Amazon Agreement are wholly or in part unenforceable. One way that they might do this is to analyze the digital document and put it through an “unconscionability test.” Unconscionability has a procedural and a substantive element: “the procedural element focuses on the existence of oppression or surprise and the substantive element focuses on overly harsh or one-sided results. To be enforceable, a contract must be both procedurally and substantially unconscionable, but the elements need not be present in the same degree.” (Armendariz). There’s a lot more case law, of course, that unpacks further the words and phrases in this sliding-rule test. That’s the law, at least in California. Seems like a slam-dunk from the standpoint of the artist or screenwriter-wannabee who just clicked a few buttons to get to the screen to submit her work. A good lawyer may be able to predict how a court will rule, based on the language of this digital cohesion contract, but you will never be sure until you actually litigate.
My advice to folks who submitted and want to play it out: Read numbers 5 and 6.4 of the Agreement you “signed.” The language there seems to indicate that if your work starts climbing, or “winning,” or getting lots of attention, or whatever it is that this contest is supposed to offer, then you are likely to be notified and will probably be sent something on actual paper to sign your name to. That would be the time to get a lawyer.
To folks who submitted but want their script retracted RIGHT NOW and the rights to their script reverted back: Follow the process that Josh @comment 73 did, and once you receive the form email from Amazon, immediately copy the text into a letter and specifically deny that you gave away any of your rights to the work in question, that you retracted the work as soon as you were made aware that your rights might be waived, and state that if you don’t hear back from an Amazon rep within 3 business days you consider a non-response an acceptance on their part that you retain all the rights to the work you just retracted. Sign it with your full name, date it, print it out, show it to a loved one or your partner, and file it away. Amazon is probably not going to go after you, if your script is the next Fight Club, but you never know. The letter only takes 5 minutes to write and you’ll sleep better. In a contest format, like Amazon’s, courts are likely to give weight to such a retraction, especially if it is done early in the process.
You, thorsmark,
Is that mark on your forehead?
You come off like an enlightened harry potter. Save the day, but,
leave the technical jargon for a more complicated case. Your saying the same thing everyone else said.
WAIT! But now to think of it, THANK YOU. I just realized something, many of us are hear repeating what’s posted on this site.
What’s the whole point of this place?
Maybe it’s to start small talk. You know, to meet people?
Well since I’m doing so…, how about dem YANKESS
For the sake of technical jargon: Exhaust all of your technical remedies, I doubt your grievances, neither formal or informal will go that far.
Ah, but then again, who am I!
Um… Stage Check… With the greatest of respect, WHAT was the point of your post? What were you actually saying to Thorsmark?
As far as I can see. Someone on this site asked for help regarding a script that he downloaded onto Amazon (Mister. Sifuentes) and people were offering him advice regarding what he might do to remove it…
Thorsmark was clearly trying to offer assistance to that person. I didn’t see anything in Thorsmark’s post that even remotely resembled a dating site or social networking?
Maybe I missed something?
To the post above me,
That’s what I’m saying about our rambling on with this topic.
“Maybe I’m missing something?”
My apologies by the way, for offending one in need of advice.
Regardless of the need for it. The advice is pretty much the same.
I left this site a couple of days ago, and maybe I expected to much to think that the comments on the topic have changed by now. At least in attitude. But….,
“Maybe “I’m” missing something.”
P.S. It’s flattering to think that you see Check, in Stage Check similarly to the greater dominance found in the game, chess.
Well, except that a cohesion contract can’t be applied to copyright.
Amazon Studios is in breach of copyright laws.
Criminal penalties for copyright infringement include:
(Amazon Studios is committing repeated offenses)
(by publishing the scripts)
A cohesion contract can only be applied to the payment of goods and services, and can’t be applied with regards to ownership of property.
I think Thorsmark is from Amazon.
By sending an email asking to get out of the option you’re acknowledging that a contract exists.
If you want to take your script down, just replace it with 90 pages of X’s, and pretend you never read the “contract”.
And forget you ever had it up there.
There’s no way they’ll follow up on it.
Because they can’t.
Don’t listen to people who merely google some stuff and act like they know what they are talking about. Don’t listen to me, either, until you do your own concerted research. The point of Mazin’s original post — and much of the commentary on this site and JA’s site in the context of the Amazon agreement — is that many writers feel hoodwinked and even those who are willing to give it a try are concerned about what they might have given up by clicking a few buttons. There may be all kinds of things wrong with the Amazon contract, legally, but it will take a claim and a court to sort it out properly — and it will only ever be relevant to a few writers who make it to the top of the Amazon heap. Until then, my advice holds: Amazon, later in the process, will try to lock up writers with a legal contract by sending docs to sign; that’s a good time to get a contracts lawyer to look over the fine-print. And for those who want to back out now, writing a letter to Amazon retracting the original submission and requesting that all rights return to the author is the best thing to do for people who are really worried, because courts will probably side with the weaker party who acts timely and in good faith. Replacing your script with 90 pages of X’s is a dumb idea; they still have your original submission and they won’t understand your intent. Explicit Intent at the contract-forming stage is really important, legally. But don’t listen to me; listen to what rehab lady says below.
Firstly thorsmark, you’ve come here giving “free legal advice”, but does anyone know who you are? Craig knows who I am, but does he know who you are?
Can anyone vouch for who you are?
Secondly, you’re right, don’t replace it with X’s, replace it with AMAZON SUX BIG DIX
Thirdly, and ultimately, you’re trying to scare them by suggesting Amazon would take them to court, whereas in reality, none of it actually matters, any lawyer, even a dubious one, would know that Amazon could never take any of these writers to court claiming rights over their work because they never paid for them.
You can’t coerce, or trick, or bully or “cohese” someone out of their intellectual property.
You have to buy it.
Latest headline:
AMAZON SUES WRITER FOR NOT GIVING THEM THEIR SCRIPT FOR FREE.
Pff, yea, right, good luck with that.
Anyone can take anyone else to court for pretty much any remotely legitimate reason. Especially if one has a team of experienced lawyers on one’s payroll.
Amazon isn’t going to take anyone to court.
But, speaking of googling around:
From Interpol’s website:
INTERPOL is interested in cooperating with law enforcement authorities, the public and private sectors in the fight against IP crime. If you represent one of these entities and would like to have further information about INTERPOL and IIPCAG or to discuss IP crime matters in your country please contact:
INTERPOL IP Crime Unit INTERPOL General Secretariat 200, quai Charles de Gaulle 69006 Lyon, France Intellectual Property (IP) Rights Programme
Nobody should be taking legal advice from a blog. Readers can weigh what they read here and then go consult an expert. Since when do parties always, without exception, have to “buy” intellectual property in order for there to be a contract governing every aspect of the agreement? The last oped I wrote and published, at The Christian Science Monitor (“Amazon e-book tipping point: Is the death of books upon us?”) — so google me, with all your free time — received no payment, now that the newspaper industry is flush with red ink. But they own the rights to it for a certain amount of time (for reprints in other papers, etc., which is analogous to Mazin’s point about residuals, just on a much smaller scale). Why publish it then? Good question. But we both “got something” out of the agreement and I assented to it, the basic framework for a contract. Don’t leave the lights on. This thread is dead.
This thread is dead? Nah I dug that hole 9 posts ago, you JUST fell in it.
As far as AMAZON goes, this is my last word. NOPE, I will do nothing further on them. And no more of my nonsense.
So, try not to work for them. If you create material under their employment, (however COHESIVE that employment may be) you will never have the rights to anything you create. No clauses will get you out.
WOW! In fact writing X’s will then BE a good idea. When you write those X’s you’ll have no reason to deny that that account is no place to be.
Count your losses and just walk away.
There are many days ahead for SCREENWRITING.
Spare time. Now that would be nice.
thorsmark, first you come here claiming to be a lawyer, giving free advice, then you claim to be some Cristian writer who gives his articles to Amazon for free.
Whatever.
I don’t know why this is of so much interest to you.
Since copyright laws were applied to screenplays. I think from around the fifties. I’ll have to look it up. Oh no, that was copyright for music, screenplay rights came after that.
But deary, this thread won’t be dead until Amazon takes down their deathtrap.
And at the end of the week we’re going to host a seminar on the permanent damage being done to these writers.
Yup. Permanent.
Hello to all,
I am a new writer. I had thought about uploading my first (only) script to the site mentioned, but now I’m not so sure. Anytime there is so much debate on a subject with pros and cons it makes a person wonder. In this case I see a lot of cons, but not too many pros. I mean the contract seams to be a big con game, for which in the site you can barely find a pro (writer)! Maybe this means something. I am by no means an expert at reading screenplays, but one thing I am good at is knowing a good movie when I see one. On the forementioned site, most of the scripts I have read are plain crap, and if they were made into movies, they would still be plain crap! I’m no genius either, but it seems to me that if a deal was in some way good, then you might find good artists there in abundance. I don’t see this. So, I am swaying toward staying clear of this new HUNGRY sea monster. I want fair pay, and proper recognition, or nothing at all. It is only a hobby for me anyway.
Cheers
An update on script removal, if anyone cares. I uploaded a script as a joke. It wasn’t a real script; just two characters repeating the same line over and over again for 160 pages. I wasn’t particularly concerned about giving up rights to a stupid joke that took me two minutes to throw together. Then I asked Amazon to take it down just to see what they’d say. They said they’d take it down but that they still owned any/all rights to the project.
After several days, the script was still online, so I sent them the following message:
“Please remove my project THE AMAZON STRIKES BACK and all drafts thereof from your site and remove my Amazon Studios account. I was under the influence of toad hallucinogens when I submitted these scripts. Truth be told, I’ve been licking upwards of a dozen toads a night and am not of sound mind to enter any such contest.”
They took it down pretty much immediately, and I got a separate email from an Amazon employee asking where one scores hallucinogenic toads in Santa Monica.
well, of course, working for Amazon Studios, you’d NEED to be licking hallucinogenic toads.
(I feel sorry for the toads)
But before I went onto the internet, I’d never heard of the term “amateur” screenwriter, or “hobbyist” screenwriter, or “aspiring” screenwriter..
Or even “pro” screenwriter.
I think they’re all internet terms.
The only people I’ve heard refer to themselves as screenwriters are ones who are optioned or sold. People who are recognized in the world as screenwriters.
The industry identifies you as a screenwriter, you don’t do that yourself.
You can’t just call yourself one, just because that’s what you want. That’s a fantasy.
I even know one who after numerous produced credits, still just calls himself a writer, rather than a screenwriter.
Anyway, scoobynoobie, don’t call yourself a hobbyist. Call yourself a writer.
And never call another writer’s work crap.
You haven’t walked in their shoes. You don’t know what it takes to do what they do. You don’t know where they’ve been, or where they’re going. It isn’t anyone’s place to judge another writer’s work.
Keep your opinions to yourself.
And I only say that because I know for a fact that all of my early work was crap.
Ab…so…lute….crap.
I mean, I may well have redefined the word crap with all the crap I wrote.
And I’m pretty sure I didn’t have any talent either.
Talentless crap.
So, I think there’s a good chance that everyone starts out writing crap, just maybe it’s better if they don’t have their noses rubbed into it. You know. Let them stay a bit innocent about it. See if they evolve.
But we’ll deal with that at the end of the week.
When we go into the damage being done.
Although, it may not be until next week. I’ll need a few spare hours to focus on it. Which I’m actually not sure when I’ll have.
Amazon Studios just sent an email about a “Bonus Contest,” featuring “Guest Judge” Linda Seger.
(To be fair, the other “Guest Judge” is Mike Werb, an actual working writer.)
Even funnier: The publisher of my two in-print novels has generously offered (for a price) to submit my novels to Amazon Studios with the same inherent loss of rights. I retain all rights to my novels except an original seven years’ worth of ‘standard printing’ rights. No way in … well, you get the point. These ploys are at the very least unethical; to me, they scream “Avoid at all costs.” I refuse to become an intellectual-rape victim of these pirates; and thanks, I’ll adapt my own work if anyone does. That includes several manuscripts that I’ve let moulder rather than spend the time and effort to market. I hate pirates. I really hate corporate greed. And most of all, I hate people and business entities that use deceit to injure others.
Warner Bros needs to pull out of this. They’re the carrot that’s being dangled.
If they don’t take responsibility for their place in this, they’ll be shot to pieces by it. The backlash will hit them just as hard.
Hey!!! Warner Brothers!!! F*CK YOU !!!
Shouldn’t you be in rehab or something?
No, Warner Bros should be, for partnering with Amazon.
And what’s to stop Linda Seger awarding these prizes to her clients as a way of justifying all the money they’ve given her.
That’s a serious conflict of interest.
I bet I’m right. I bet one of Linda’s clients wins the first prize. And no one will even know that they’re one of her clients.
AND she’s going to use this as a way to recruit.
The WGA should boycott Amazon Studios by refusing to rewrite scripts that come out of it.
I thought, I wonder why the hell I’m being allowed to run amok like this, and then I look sideways and see the whole P.J. thing.
Well, do I have to be the one to say it?
Large numbers of working writers were speaking out at how dreadful this practice of publishing the scripts to unreleased films is for their livelihoods and their working relationships, but she wouldn’t listen to a word of it.
Na. I’m “helping” writers.
beee oooo beeee oooo beeee ooooo
Title: Amateurville Horror.
Logline:
Loonatic writer-killing Granny let loose in copyright land.
Well. But I also think DDP should take some of the blame for it. He supported whole hords of them supporting her.
Hits people. Hits. They’re not writers, they’re hits.
I support Fox in this. Someone had to do it.
I was getting anxiety about my scripts going viral before my agent had even seen them. That’s a cruel thing to do to writers.
The only way she’ll get out of this is if she publishes a sincere apology to Fox and all whose scripts she’s claimed ownership of, and explains to anyone downloading the scrips to unreleased films, what terrible damage it does to writers. And what a terrible betrayal it is.
(sorry, just keeping the thread alive for when we spill champagne on the keyboard after Amazon pulls its experiment down)
I AM A NEW WRITER. Sorry Rehablady, my words were not taken as they were written. Did not mean to judge any individual or particular work, just an overall. If you have uploaded to Amazon, I did not mean to JUDGE your stuff. Sorry again, my bad. I will have to pay closer attention to raise my standards to meet the higher authority in this matter:) That way, when someone sees my crap someday, it won’t be any surprise! Bottom line is that AMAZON is a RIP OFF.
Out…
You see. Now you’re trying to cover up the crap. I don’t have anything posted on Amazon. Far out.
But I might have in the early days. Back when I was pure as snow. Just a red cloaked girl in the woods. Bright eyed and bushy tailed.
I might have pressed that upload my work button, and thought, wow, that was easy.
But we’ll go into the damage soon enough. I keep thinking maybe they’ll spare me the trouble and just take down the site.
But also, what slows me from annihilating them is that they’ve promised to give away 2.7 million. To writers and filmmakers. And, I mean, I think writers getting money is always fun.
That was their side of the bargain. A prize every month. So, now they have to.
Hand it over Amazon. That’s what you made them sign a contract for.
We actually don’t care who you give it to. We just want to see you do it.
I personally, as a new writer, would have been killed by the reviews. Wiped out. And seeing my words rewritten. To crud. Butchery to the sensitive mind.
Now. Hurry up Amazon. Hand over the money and then dump the site. Quick. Before this becomes irreversible, and I have to become the “vigil lady” instead.
You could never use the word “studios” anyway. Studios are carved by generations of passionate film makers, not by, some, smarty pants with a website.
Quick, hurry up.
Dear Rehab Lady, I must recant. You are right, I was too harsh on those writers with my general comment, please forgive. You seem like a very thoughtful and kind person and I hope that your writing endeavores are successful. I suppose I was just angry with the Amazon thing and the way they want to strip away what new writers work so hard to achieve, and I do understand your point. And thank you, I do need to be put in check at times. Question: How can we as writers stop Amazon?
HA!!!
DID YOU HEAR THAT !!!
“I”………. am KIND AND THOUGHTFUL !!!
TIM !!!! TIM !!!! Did you hear that !!!!
Hilarious. Well, scoobynoob, I’d like to be able to say otherwise, but you’re wrong again, I, in fact, am evil…..
haha, but you’re forgiven.
Maybe I’m just not evil to new writers., I think I’m a bit protective of them. I believe their sensitivities are their gifts. And should remain to a degree intact.
Not all slashed and bloodied in to pieces by some cyber nut.
This review and rewrite idea is completely contrary to what is actually wholesome and nurturing for new writers.
There should be a law, that bans ANY unproduced screenplay from being published online AT ALL EVER. Even with permission. They don’t know what they’re getting themselves in to.
Amazon Studios is murdering new talent.
En masse.
Massacre.
And as an experiment at that.
Like we’re lab rats now.
Okay, picture some 17 year old girl. She’s lazy, but drags herself out of bed to go the letterbox to get her science magazine every Friday. The rest of the time she listens to music, hangs out with her friends and at night, before she goes to bed she writes filmscripts.
Then one day, she’s mucking around on script writing sites and ends up on Amazon Studios. She pushes the upload my work button, and then some isolated misfit guy in… Vermont, who has been arguing with people about screenwriting on misguided forums for ten years, reviews her script.
He pissed off. What she’s writing has got… “something”.
It makes him feel bad. He’s even a bit angry, maybe it would have helped if he’d had a bit of that something.
How is this story going to end.
Hurry up Amazon.
Don’t make me describe the damage.
(involves picturing a rabbit being eaten by a dog)
Collaborating is more organic than that.
It’s not a good idea for them to be placed at the mercy of strangers on the internet. And for them to be psychologically so taken hostage by it.
But I’m only one writer.
There’s nothing I can do.
My only plan is to bitch about it.
OMG!! Rehab lady! Enough already! It’s Craig Mazin’s web site not yours! You said a while back that this topic was getting out of hand and that you were going to go away for a while and that you hoped that this topic would die.
So… Just let it die already… People don’t come on to this blog to JUST hear what you’ve got to say… You’re doing 3 and 4 entries at a time, then letting ONE person say ONE thing, then you’re adding another 3 and 4 entries on top of that…?
I’m positive you’re a sweet person and all…. But… please… ENOUGH!!
If this is Connie’s idea of rehab, it doesn’t seem to be going too well.
Wow! The plot thickens
Anyhowz, maybe some crafty writer could write a script, “The Amazon Monster”, about a slithering jungle alien that morphs itself into an ATM with a caption ‘Enter work here then press button’. When the writers press the button their souls are sucked into the belly of the monster. The Warner brothers are these two rich guys that control the alien from the safety of a mile high iron clad contract that is disguised as the promised land, with milk and honey. The Bros then process the souls into golden nuggets and feed a small portion back to the alien, to keep the cycle of death alive!
Ramblings…
A company I’m working to help start is crafting a new human process design for movie production generally. Crowdsourcing will be part of it, but it will be nothing like the ridiculously exploitive style of this Amazon project. Right now we’re taking input from creatives at all levels of the process.
I thought Elvis had left the building.
I’m just entertaining the troops.
And waiting for writers who have scripts posted at Amazon to lash out at me and tell me to shut up.
But see. How Warner Bros is already depicted as one of the baddies? I have no beef with WB. They’re notorious for being willing to look at new talent. I think they’re being exploited in this as well.
Anyway, here’s an example of innocent new talent on the internet.
Just to keep things relative and in perspective.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNMAEn3QUSI
And you never see me jumping up and down over anything. Anywhere, ever. Except with regards to damage being done to writers.
Look how big the internet is. And I’m hardly anywhere on it.
Well, actually, I am on two other websites. One is a World News forum, in which I’m a commenter.
And that’s another thing. On the Amazon Studios forum. Anyone who questions the rules is quickly bandied around by a small group of hopefuls who push them down, with slogans like:
It’s new, that’s what makes it exciting
Don’t worry, Amazon is a respectable company, they’ll sort out the details.
I need the 20K, I don’t care.
I want to break in
If you don’t like the rules, don’t enter.
Terrible psychological entrapment is going on there.
Thank ya…thank ya very much!
Scoobynoobie!!!
WHAT A GREEEEEAAAT PLOT!!!
Craig, I was wondering what your position was on the Fox lawsuit against PJ McIlvaine?
After reading several more scripts from the Amazon site I found them to be entertaining, I was too quick to conclude an opinion earlier. Yes, these people are tying with honest intent, some are good, real good, way better than I originally gave them credit for as a whole. Qustion: What exactly does Amazon mean when they say they will return NON EXCLUSIVE rights to you if they do not buy an option after 18 months?
Thanks…
Anyway, now is the time to be careful.
That’s all I’m saying. I think some of these Amazon Studios writers are for some reason very actively recruiting. And attacking. And advertising.
I don’t know the details of the psychology of that, but I think it’s a bit scary.
Listen to the advice of working writers. They’re… working writers. They know more about achieving what you want to achieve than the anonymous voices do.
And Craig doesn’t want to discuss the pj thing, because he wouldn’t want to risk getting her into even more trouble than she already is.
Anyway, I think I’m done with all this.
There are going to be horrible displays of death throes etc, I don’t want to be around for any of that.
Unless you want to talk about the pj thing some more.
How can she use “teaching tool” for other writers as a defense?
Is she a writing teacher? Is she or has she at any stage been employed by an accredited institution?
Can she cite examples of any screenwriting lecturers who use this method of stealing unproduced scripts as well as vast numbers of produced scripts as a teaching aid?
No.
She just wanted to be famous on the internet and loved by Carson. So that maybe he’d help her sell a script or find a manger.
It was purely self serving.
And I hope they nab Carson for this as well.
And no one used to care about a few old scripts being passed around for other writers to read. But she decided to turn it into a circus, with the help of DDP, because he wants the hits, afterall, a writer is worth 70 cents a day to him, and now in fact, they’ve spoilt it even for new writers wanting to read old scripts, by being giant twits about it.
She too, should have listened to the advice of working writers.
Rehab Lady. 2 posts in a row, then 4 posts in a row. It’s good to see that you listened to my previous complaint about your hogging of this blog. You speak on Craig Mazin’s behalf regarding the P.J Mc Ilvaine issue? I mean, seriously… come on? Are you Craig’s agent? Because otherwise, what are doing speaking on his behalf?
Anyway, you’ve pretty much single handedly ruined my enjoyment of Craig’s blogs and his terrific web site. I used to really enjoy coming on here to hear all the DIFFERENT OPINIONS of all the DIFFERENT PEOPLE.
But now – since all I pretty much ever see is posts from you, and that is NOT what I come on here for… Then, unfortunately that’s about done it for me on this site…
As I said… I’m sure you ARE a LOVELY PERSON, but this is not your website…
Adios…
I’ve been reading how Amazon Studio is a bad deal, but it turned out that I got very curious about how worse it could be for a foreign writer to get in this scamming project.
I think foreign writers are quite shocked. Some of my friends already entered this contest. I didn’t have the chance to finigh my first script just yet so lucky me. I have to write in my native languge first, you know. So quite a long shot(now you laughes at me).
Any way, wish my friends read all your comments. Too late now, isn’t it?
ha ha, I mean, I’m not laughing “at” you.,
I’m laughing “with” you
And
I don’t know why I do the multiple post thing, I don’t ever intend to, I post what I think is more than enough, then I go out of it,
And then something even more “important” springs to mind, probably as a natural progression from the last thought, and
well,
as soon as you see the words “rehab lady”, you can avert your eyes.
But, I am actually done with this. It doesn’t play on my mind anymore.
Let them throw money at it, I don’t care. Maybe it will be good for some new writers to find their voices by ultimately speaking out against it.
That’s why the United Nations will always recommend against war. Even when it comes to murderous dictatorships. Internal problems are always better resolved internally. That’s why they use sanctions.
Hopefully Amazon writers will sort Amazon out.
They’ll drag their brains though the mud for a year or so, I don’t know how long they can sustain this, but eventually they’ll start squealing like stuck pigs.
But it’s great that writers like Craig speak out.
Crucial.
It means, when they realize they’ve been tortured and burnt, they’ll feel they’re not alone with it. So, apart from saving a few of them, the ones who come out of it stand a better chance of recovery.
So kudos for that.
And no, I don’t speak for Craig, I just use him as a soapbox.
rehab lady:
Please take a break for a while. I don’t want to have to ban you.
Sound like I would have better odds at winning the lottery.
pff, like I care.
Yea, go on, do Amazon a favor, and ban me.
INTIRA VANITI, the world is falling apart. I hate so much this insane ‘rat race’ where everyone tries to take advantage of each other.
rehab lady is already doing drugs to ease the pain and I’m here drinking like a fish.
Ha ha, Ms. Rehab lady, I heard your laughter all the way here from half the world away…sorry about some typos…I’ll be very careful this time.
By the way, I read all your comments and you wrote beautifully and full of commonsense…and facts too. You said you’re a new writer? I think American new writers are really excellent the way they express their thoughts and feelings….just look at you!!
All writers who posted here are really good too. I’ve learnt a lot here. Even some fights were fascinating. I don’t think you really meant it with all those strong words. Deep down inside I think you people really care for one another. The Americans are very famous about…never leave friends behind or out in the cold…you know…Maybe it’s just such a frustrating time for everybody and people can lose their heads from time to time, that’s all..I think..I believe.
Anyway, I also have friends got locked up in this Amazon’s cage, with no exit button! Some of them really want to get out after this cruel and nonsense experiment but they just cannot. I read some comments here about some people already tried. And they got very frustrated.
I think Amazon needs to stop this abusive experiment once and for all before things get too deep into people’s nerves. At least give people “CHOICES” to exit if they want too. Room with no “exit” is jail, and no one deserves to be in their jail regardless of how naïve or careless people are.
I think if Amazon people are good people and have good intention about this experiment, they should realise by now that it does not work this way. You try to enslave artists; sooner or later you will be burnt and destroyed. Artists are very dangerous people because of their extra sensitivity. With only pens in hands, they can easily destroy you, as simple as that. Especially writers in this free world.
Ms. Rehab lady wrote…
“Hopefully Amazon writers will sort Amazon out. They’ll drag their brains though the mud for a year or so, I don’t know how long they can sustain this, but eventually they’ll start squealing like stuck pigs.”
I just could not agree with you more. Right now, I think you have some good frontline writers in there to fight them off. At the end of the day, believe me, it is not about the award money or winning trophy. It will be all about the integrity of all writers as a whole. I just hope Amazon wake up. And really WAKE UP.
You also wrote in one of your comments… “Don’t focus on breaking in. It’s never a mad grab or a shot in the dark, it’s the outcome of being focused on writing, and finding people to collaborate with.”
I think you have a lot of wisdom to give away…so…come back whenever you have …something even more “important” springs to mind…, Ms. Re.
As a new writer, I think you are very gifted and very caring.
Douglas…
Well, at least you still have “Passion” to addict to that something, right? Still feeling the pain is such a blessing, don’t you think? Or else you will breed to death!
Breeding to death is how I’ve always planned on going.
Say, I’m still wanting to know what Amazon means by stating, in their contract, that they will give back “Non Exclusive Rights” after 18 months, if they do not purchase an option on a piece. I don’t have much legal knowledge, any help would be great.
Thanks…
I’m a book writer, not a screenwriter. I got here from the Writer Beware blog. I’m increasingly concerned about the ways in which Amazon, Google, and other “new publishing” entities are exploiting book writers. Amazon has already run a “contest” like this for novel writers, for several years. Here’s the data:
http://www.amazon.com/Breakthrough-Novel-Award-Books/b?ie=UTF8&node=332264011
One issue, which I assume is also relevant to scriptwriters, is: Everyone who is offered a book-publishing contract has it reviewed and negotiated by a lawyer. But they sell their new e-books through Kindle (where Amazon is essentially a publisher), and they enter contests like this that sign away copyrights, without a second thought. If you enter an agreement online by clicking your mouse, it’s still a contract and it still has all the legal force and long-term consequences of a contract.
Scoobynoobie: If the screenwriting business works like the book-publishing business in this respect–and I bet it does–getting back NONexclusive rights from Amazon is a meaningless feel-good sop for ignorant writers. No book publisher would touch a book if a competitive publisher had a perfectly legal right–for the entire future copyright term–to also publish that book and compete for its revenues, and/or to sell it elsewhere for that purpose. Likewise, why would Hollywood want to buy a script to which they could get nonexclusive rights when there are so many to which they could easily get exclusive rights?
Rehab Lady,
I haven’t looked at the terms of the Amazon screenwriting contest at all. But for their novel-writing contest, in past years, the random public have acted as slush readers/weeders, voting for and against manuscripts to determine which manuscripts pass to the level where they are finally reviewed by professionals. So to survive the first cut, the entrants try to get as many people as possible to vote for their manuscripts.
Rehab lady,
I’M probably going to get banned from this forum for over-posting. Before I go, could anyone tell me whether there is the faintest sale of possibility of a script adapted from an anonymous Victorian serialized novel that has been totally forgotten but could be made into a great PBS/BBC style Gothic thriller? Seriously.
About the forum: My experience with Amazon forums (there are many, I’ve only read one or two) is that they exist to praise Amazon. Anyone who criticizes Amazon in any material way usually gets shouted down. I suspect Amazon of planting employees in their forums to help this along.
Thank you Frances Grimble, your answer makes perfect sense. I have two screenplays under my belt and there is no way I will GIVE them to Amazon, or any other entity. I worked very hard to finish them, and they are jewels of original concepts that have never been done before. I do hope my work will be produced someday, but till then, I will continue to write just because I love to write.
Our words are like the strokes of a paint brush on the canvas of the mind.
Scoob…
CRAIG, I’ve done a lot of research over the past week, and I’ve found a lot glaring problems with the Amazon.contest
OPERATIONAL AND TECHNICAL PROBLEMS
Anyone can register and enter the contest with an unverified email address. Amazon does not even verify that email address is valid. You can register with Snoopythedog@madeupemailaddress.com and immediately start posting material and reviewing scripts.
The contestant user ID can BE ANYTHING, even other users exact user IDs! Furthermore, anyone is free to change their user ID at any time, an unlimited number of times.
These two problems mean that any user can impersonate any other user. As an example, a person hell bent on sandbagging a script with bad reviews can sign up as ANY USER ID and then leave bad reviews, and make it look like a specific user is leaving the bad feedback, so that specific user will get bad reviews as retribution. Note, this does not involve hacking, or anything of the sort. As it stands right now anyone can change their user ID.
Nothing is verified when contestants sign up. Although the user id can be changed at any time, the initial name used at sign up cannot. However, what is to stop a user from signing up as “Daffy Duck?” Amazon would then have a “contract” with Daffy Duck.
Screenplays do NOT have to be downloaded by a reviewer before a review can be left. There is no minimum time period allotted for reading the screenplay before a review can be left. Same goes for the movies. Reviews can be left instantly without having read, or watched the source material.
Screenplays must be uploaded in RTF (Rich Text Format). This very poor decision was made to make it so ANYONE could download a screenplay, add their additions/amendments and then re-upload it without the problem of conversion from a proprietary format, such as Final Draft, Movie Magic, etc.
Unfortunately, converting to RTF from a screenplay is a huge pain, and often requires a careful proofreading of the converted screenplay in order to correct formatting and capitalization mistakes from the conversion. Furthermore, it depends on what program is used by the reader on how the end result looks and how many pages are added/subtracted in this conversion.
If an (Amazon) judge opens the an RTF file on a Mac, it will look different than it would on a PC. It will look different even using different versions of the same program. This is the primary reason why everyone uses PDF files for final output.
Lastly, editing an RTF screenplay is ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE unless you edit it in the same program it was created, and even then it is still going to be riddled with errors, so this defeats the purpose of not using a dedicated program. There is no excuse why Amazon could not have partnered up with any one of the FREE screenwriting software vendors, at the very minimum.
LOGISTIC PROBLEMS
The January 2011 contest finalists will be announced on February 17, 2011. This means that if the January contest gets 1,000 entries the last three days, AND Amazon has totally processed/judged all of the entries to that point, they will have to blow through 1,000 entries in 17 days in order to be able to announce the finalists.
Apologists for Amazon have said, “Amazon is a $70 Billion dollar company, they can afford to hire the best screenplay readers, and just can hire as many as they need.”
This is not the case. Amazon may have huge revenues, but the Amazon Studios contest does NOT have an unlimited budget.
If this is the case, it would make no sense. Especially if Amazon continues to get thousands of entries every month.
Let’s say by month six they have a total of 10,000 screenplays on the site, is Amazon going to have a significantly increasing amount of readers to sift through ALL of the material on the site EACH AND EVERY MONTH?
Furthermore, this would be an utter waste of time given that less than 1% of the screenplays are going to be on the level necessary to win the Amazon contest each month. Is Amazon really going to re-read every script, or even on a minimal level, re-read every logline in the contest every month?
Is Amazon going to have a secret, or internal designation for undesirable scripts, or scripts that have already been judged, and did not win, or place in the finals? Nobody knows.
It has not been established WHO is going to be the sifting through chaff to get to wheat in the Amazon contest. Where is Amazon getting the people to judge the contest? Nobody knows. Most likely it will be “industry professionals.”
Since Amazon quickly realized that contestants were already gaming the system with padded positive votes for their project from family and friends, it has since updated via FAQ stating that they no longer are going to figure audience metrics heavily into the judging, or selection process. If this is the case, what is the criteria that the judges/readers are going to use to whittle down the entries to get to the finalists?
Even after the winners are selected, they still have a very big hurdle to overcome, and that’s getting Warner Bros. to buy the screenplay/movie.
Keep in mind that Amazon reserves the right to award NO PRIZES during an award period if no scripts, or movies are found that are worthwhile Amazon may award prizes during the first contest period to the “least worst” entrants that they find to simply get publicity, but cannot continue to present screenplays/movies to Warner Bros. that are the “least worst.”
LEGAL PROBLEMS
Do -NOT- take any of my advice, or opinion in this section as legal fact. Consult a lawyer. Below is a summary of what I’ve found on the net about the legalities of this contest.
If you submit your screenplay to the Amazon contest you give them an almost limitless OPTION on your screenplay for 18 month, plus an additional 18 months. 18 months is an eternity, and if the script cannot advance, or win the contest in six months, there is almost no chance that the script, or another version of it, is going to suddenly blossom into a script worthy of purchase by Warner Bros. Since it has not been established what happens to the scripts at the end of the each month’s contest, the odds that a participant’s entry will win outside of the month that it is entered in is incredibly slim, and only gets WORSE for each additional month.
It is entirely UNCLEAR what happens if Amazon dissolves the contest, which is a high possibility. Do the rights automatically revert to the entrants, or does Amazon retain their (non-terminable) rights, aside from those pertaining to optioning your screenplay?
THIS: “You grant us a worldwide, … non-terminable, … transferable right, during and after the License Period (without exercising the Option), to (a) copy, transfer, stream, sell, rent, make available for download and otherwise exploit and distribute any Original Property you contribute to Amazon Studios and all Derivative Works created during the License Period [meaning those "Revisions" that anyone was able to make to your work] in any and all media, formats and modes now known or later invented, including, without limitation, via all online and digital formats”
This means that if someone (including Amazon) makes revisions to your screenplay, AMAZON gets to keep that version and do WHATEVER THEY WANT WITH IT AND NEVER PAY YOU ONE DIME.
This is the most troubling item in this entire contest.
Remember, Amazon only has to pay you IF you win one of the contests. If you script is found by a “producer” at Amazon studios as a revision, they can rework your script make a few changes and “appropriate” it without paying you, OR (and this is the kicker) the person who made the revisions.
Amazon is promising huge prizes, this is true. But it also reserves the right not to award ANY prize if there aren’t any entries worth winning. This is a wall Amazon is going to hit in regards to the movies section very quickly. Very few people are going to go to the trouble of making a half assed full movie based on their script just for the Amazon contest. If their movie is actually really good, they can just upload it to youtube, or any of the other countless video sites on the internet and not have their rights encumbered.
The winner(s) of each monthly screenplay contest must have a screenplay worth presenting to Warner Bros. Warner Bros. is one of the most ideal studios to work with, and this is great. However, Amazon is NOT putting up ANY money at all for production. This means if a screenwriter wants to get more than $20,000 for the (winning script) WARNER BROS MUST PURCHASE THE SCREENPLAY. On another note, is Amazon really going to hand over odd looking RTF files of the winning screenplays to Warner Bros?
CONTENT
The interesting thing is if someone actually won the contest for the month with an “appropriated” script, then WHO would the original author be able to sue, if anyone? The original author could not sue Amazon, that’s pretty much ironclad in the contest rules, and by entering the contest, the author gives up all rights to revisions, so it’s a legal quandary.
Furthermore, writers should be writing and IMPROVING THEIR OWN WORK, not reading the screenplays on the site and revising the other people’s screenplays on the site.
This cooperative script writing contest was already tried in last years “cowrite script” contest, and it was a dismal failure. Every single week in the contest the winner simply ignored the previous week’s entries and did their own thing without any regard to what had happened previously in the story.
So, I decided to have some fun and rewrite the first 14 pages and make it a sort of “Austin Powers” comedy, instead of a kids comedy, since the original author seemingly had no idea how to write a kids movie.
Well, the author went ballistic, obviously and didn’t take too kindly in my reworking of his screenplay to something more adult themed. The original author contacted Amazon and they removed my revision, but its ghost still appears in the original author’s page.
Although my revision wasn’t the best in the world, and was meant only as a test, it is a PERFECT example of why letting any idiot revise anyone’s screenplay is a horrible idea. -I- might have thought my revisions were AWESOME, but the original author didn’t, and just reported the screenplay and Amazon removed it.
The ultimate point is that this revision system is NOT welcomed by ANYONE. What’s the point anyway if Amazon just pulls the alternative revisions in the end if the original author just complains and claims that the revision has inflammatory elements.
Is Amazon really going to read the ENTIRE screenplay and/or compare and contrast it with the original before pulling it for any offending elements? Most likely not.
On another note, is Amazon going to read every iteration of a screenplay in a project? If there are five revisions, three done by the original author, and two done by two different revisionists, is Amazon going to read all six versions of the script?
This means that this contest is going to get the bottom of the barrel entries until the contest changes its rules to something more fair and balanced towards the writers/filmmakers.
Why would anyone enter something actually good into the Amazon contest?
If the script/movie is actually good, then locking it down for 18 months in the hope that somehow that it is going to win the contest is a long shot at best. Then there is the attached rights Amazon has FOREVER that is attached to any project entered.
This means that entrants are not going to enter their best work. Why enter your best work so Amazon can pay you next to nothing for it, if you can use a “sacrificial” screenplay to try and get noticed, and if you win, that’s great. You can then (hopefully) try to pitch your other screenplays to Warner Bros.
IF a project DOES WIN, is it going to be removed from the site? I don’t think Warner Bros. would want a hot screenplay on the internet during production, so this is a very valid question.
IF a project DOES WIN, can entrants to the contest submit their sequel screenplays for the winning project (assuming WB doesn’t pull the project down off the site)?
Are the same “Popular Projects” going to seemingly stay on the main board forever?
Right now there’s, “Electric Sunset,” “Villain,” “Little White lies,” “Green,” “The Greys,” “Mack” and “Get Motivated,” which have not moved out of the main splash screen.
How are other screenplays going to get noticed when these handful of screenplays will seemingly stay up FOREVER on the main board, thus getting more downloads and reviews since the participants were able to (somehow) get their downloads and reviews up to an impossible point in less than two weeks?
Amazon CAN be a GREAT contest and truly herald in the next big thing in filmmaking. However, this is NEVER going to happen with the current version of the contest.
SUGGESTIONS
EVERY user has to be ID verified and use their real name as their id in the contest and can have only one account.
ELIMINATE the 18 month option with 18 month extension. 18 months is an ETERNITY these days. It also eliminates the feeling that the screenwriter is being put in a no win situation.
Make it a THREE month option with a NINE month extension option. This is more than fair for all parties.
The odds of a good screenplay slipping out of Amazon’s hands because Amazon had a (maximum) 12 month option on a screenplay instead of 36 months are incredibly slim.
ELIMINATE crowd sourcing. It does not work. Go look at the failed t.v. movie making contest “On the Lot” to see how well that worked out. The winner won a “Million Dollar Producing” deal with Steven Spielberg and has never made anything since the series ended. IF screenwriters want to collaborate, more power to them. Forcing collaboration almost never yields desirable results. Another example is the cowrite script contest, a contest where each week for eight weeks, contestants wrote ten pages of the script. Unfortunately, what happened was that nobody paid any attention to the previous established storyline and the script that emerged was utter nonsense.
ELIMINATE the movie portion of the contest. Or at least eliminate the stupid “test movie” portion. Only the movies that are the flashiest, or have the best production design are going to win. Even then, if you have completed a REAL movie, why would you sandbag your own film just at the CHANCE that you might win the Amazon contest?
SCRIPT COMES FIRST.
How about this: Writer/filmmaker submits a script/pitch to the contest. Once again it has to be a completed script.
If the script is selected as the monthly winner I would suggest the following breakdown.
The winner would get $20,000 for the script and $20,000 to direct. The winner would be assigned an established industry producer/line producer who already has his/her salary paid for. The winner would get a $100,000 budget to make the movie. The winner would be TOTALLY FREE to direct the movie any way they would want, as long as it stayed on script.
This method has a much greater probability of finding that diamond in the rough. Much better than just cutting the winner a check for $100,000. The end result may turn out to be utter crap, but it might just turn out to be the next big thing.
Amazon needs to make it so that the writers and filmmakers entering the contest don’t feel like they just signed a 40 year mortgage at 27.5% interest when entering the contest.
The Auditors:
Wow. Thanks for such a thorough comment!
For the Amazon Breakthrough Novel award, Amazon just signs up random Amazon users as judges. Anybody with the patience to wade through the material. I ran into some of them on a forum. They took the project seriously, but none of them had any editorial training. I’m an editor as well as a writer, and I think the general public is is even less qualified to edit scripts than books. At least they read books; they don’t read scripts. Unless the Amazon contest rules explicitly say industry professionals are doing the reading, commenting, and weeding out, don’t count on it.
Yep- I agree totally with what “The Auditors” said. There are basically TWO PEOPLE on the Amazon site calling the shots — manipulating opinion & blog traffic so that THEIR PROJECTS stay in the lime light.
I mean, good luck to them… they’ve cleverly figured out how to MANIPULATE the system (by setting up forums and ENDLESS discussions that link back to their projects) so that THEY stay in the spotlight– thus giving any other projects very little chance of overshadowing them…
Then, of course, if ANYONE says ANYTHING negative about the Scamazon site ON the Scamazon site– these two lovely people jump all over you and try to belittle you, by saying that it’s the QUALITY OF THE WORK that matters, not public opinion– and that “YOU’RE JUST BITTER.” But what they fail to mention is: Whilst THEY DOMINATE the forums and make sure their work stays on the home page of the site on the most “popular” scripts or “most active forums” page… who is going to page through the other 1500 entries and read them?? Why would you bother?
People are basically looking at the top 25 entries and that’s about it… Who’s gonna read project 1250? Why would you do so? It may be brilliant… but why would you go look at a script rated 1250?
And these two people who have their eyes squarely set on the $20,000 prize… KNOW IT… They manipulate the whole system by creating endless “Forums” and discussions (all linked back to their projects) to keep their projects at the front of the pack… Foremost in everyone’s mind… They must LITERALLY spend ALL DAY watching and manipulating the Scamazon site…
I’m not going to name these two people. But a cursory visit to the site and you will know pretty quickly who I’m talking about.
Let’s just call them: Dick & Mr. Vacuum…
Not their real names….
I was reviewing some screenplays on Triggerstreet the other day and was actually impressed by the quality of two of the scripts that I read.
Granted, they both were still amateur hour, but actually had some very good strong points, and were well written.
I’ve read/watched ALL of the projects on the main page and I’m actually amazed at how terrible they are.
I read “Dick’s” script and although it is written for children, it actually has a line in the script (twice) about the heroes(!) bringing in an Afghani Goat Rapist to convince the main Villain to confess.
Dick is currently on draft four of his screenplay. The three previous drafts had the same errors in grammar and spelling. These are errors that any writer should have caught.
It’s actually amusing this conundrum that Amazon has created.
Is Amazon honestly going to be able to find ANY winner in the first month’s contest?
Let’s assume that they get 3,000 entries. Less than 1% of those entries are going to be worthwhile. Let’s say 15 projects
How many out of those fifteen are going to be “WOW!” level scripts necessary for Warner Bros. to purchase them? Most likely zero.
I can only assume that Amazon thought they were going to be awash in “High Concept” ideas that they could “appropriate” via the rules of the contest.
Unfortunately for Amazon, and their contest, writers guard their most valuable ideas like GOLD; they’re not going to just give away a valuable high concept idea, let alone a completed script for nothing.
What Amazon IS going to get are generic scripts based on generic concepts with a few well written, but ultimately unsellable scripts sprinkled in for good measure.
Once again, since the contest is online, and is highly visible, Amazon can’t simply pick “the best of the worst” to present to Warner Bros. otherwise they’ll look silly online and with Warner Bros.
It’s such as shame too… They’re putting all of this money up and could go a lot of good with it.
@ “The Auditors”
To be fair to “Dick”… you are the first person that I’ve heard say that his script was “terrible”. I’ve read it, and I thought it was terrific. I thought the dialogue was sharp and the story engaging.
Also: (God, I can’t believe I’m defending this guy) he never said that his script was for children or an animated piece. Infact, he said his script was in the style of Austin Powers… So, in that context – his adult humor was/is appropriate.
It was people like ME (after reading it) who suggested that it might be a wonderful Dreamworks style animation movie… not Dick… (something similar to “Megamind”)
Also: Regarding his formatting and grammatical errors? Again, may not be Dick’s fault. When people downloaded their scripts onto Scamazon– apparently the RTF conversion screwed up people’s work and messed it up big time. Removed capital letters and generally made people look like total amateurs.
Anyway: Like I said, I don’t want to defend this guy — because I really don’t like the way he’s CONTROLLING the site by getting involved in EVERY SINGLE FORUM and being all fake and huggy and kissy with everyone, whilst still making sure that HIS project always stays at the forefront of everyones mind on the Scamazon site.
BUT – I did want to clear up a couple of points…
Also, I probably should have called the second person I was talking about: “Mr. Dam”…
I probably should have said: “Dick & Mr. Dam” are manipulating the site BEAUUUUTIFULLY to make sure that THEY stay on the HOME page of the site.”
They’re both on the first page of the Scamazon site… So, I’ll let you all be detectives and figure it out…. Ciao!
Perhaps this “Scamazon” thing is a blessing of sorts. Let me explain…There are many good stories in the screenplays posted on the site, and if this continues, the site could soak up many many more good stories/concepts. This leaves more room for us new writers who choose to keep our work and not give it over to a life sentance in script prison. In other words, It gives me a better chance to sell something on the outside, well you know. Anyhowz, it is sad to see those good stories waisted, but more power to me, my stuff is free to breath. My work is still alive and most important, it’s still MINE!
Moo hoo haa ha ha…
“Dick” just wrote this on the boards over at the contest:
“I hear you, Robert. But I’m not sure how that would actually work. The people who make the most noise on these boards aren’t the ones who are actually participating in the community, but people who claim to be “observing”.
They don’t post scripts and they don’t read scripts, they just come here to attack. You’ve got everybody from lawyers looking to debate the contract, to shills from other sites coming here to bash and promote their own contests.
In fairness to Amazon, it’s kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation. If they had a moderator here asking questions, they would be attacked relentlessly, because a lot of these people don’t want answers (many of which are already posted) they want spectacle.
I think these site updates prove that Amazon is listening and demonstrates their desire to improve the site for the actual participants. I expect we’ll see many more as the weeks and months roll on. “
I guess “Dick” would much rather have NOBODY answering questions, or moderating, or fixing the terrible flaws in their system.
The site “updates” “Dick” is referring to are 100% cosmetic and do not answer any of the serious questions raised by everyone NOT in the contest. It seems those that have entered the contest really don’t care about how it’s going to be judged, what’s going to happen to the scripts on the site every month, are they even going to be paid if they win, etc.
Oh, and “Dick’s” script WAS listed under childrens/family for a while there. He just changed the category to sci-fi/adventure genre.
The grammar errors were a lot of “its/its,” “your/you’re” and so on. Combined, he has over SIXTY grammar/spelling errors, despite going through four drafts in two weeks.
He also forgot to fully name a main character. So, when the main character shows up later in the script the reader is going to be confused. I told him about this error, but he didn’t care.
And no, I didn’t like it. I mean, come on, “Dick” didn’t even know that there’s a famous comic book/pulp novel character named “Doc Savage” when he wrote the script?
Also, he actually named the sidekick MONGO (From Blazing Saddles), which he realized that he had to change it, since he totally ripped off Mel Brooks with the character, even the name.
Besides, the movie has already been done like six, or seven times in the past decade. But, what do I know, “Dick” has already had meetings with studio heads and production companies because of his script.
Lastly, “The Venture Bros.” already has done every possible angle on the very narrow angle “Dick” chose with his story.
@ The Auditors
Wow – has he really had meetings with studio heads and prod cos because of his Scamazon script? Can you verify this? You sound like you’re somebody “in the know”.
If it’s true, then no wonder he’s such a vocal FAN of Scamazon. It’s no wonder he’s basically their unofficial spokesperson, and forum “policeman” – who jumps all over anyone who dares to criticize the site.
I MEAN, HE MUST LOVE SCAMAZON!!
I had no idea about his character being the same as that of a comic character, but I’m not a big comic person. Also didn’t know about the “Blazing Saddles” stuff, but I can’t say that I’ve ever sat through the whole movie.
But, yep, the way that Dick has manipulated and controlled the site at the expense of everybody else… is rather sleazy and underhanded, really…
The sad thing is: most of the people on the site don’t even realize what he’s doing. They just think he’s this big, friendly, Teddy Bear of a guy — who contributes to “the community” and only has everyone elses best interests at heart.
They can’t see that while he’s smiling and shaking your hand, he’s also stealing your wallet from your back pocket…
I hope that he doesn’t win the first $20,000, but sadly… I think he probably will…
“Dick” just posted ANOTHER draft and didn’t fix any of the errors, AGAIN.
Somebody else was nice and went through and pointed the errors out to him, and one of his drones left a review:
“Congratulations, Richard. You are a fantastic writer and this script continues to set a high bar for everyone here. I like seeing that you take your work and the feedback of others seriously. Keep your eyes on the prize.
This was and is the best script on Amazon. IT IS laughable that somebody would post a critique of your use of possessive forms.”
This is one of the main problems with the contest. None of the entrants actually want feedback or critiques of their scripts. Remember, I pointed the errors out to “Dick” over a week ago and he didn’t care to correct them.
Now someone else points the same errors out to him and was nice enough to type them out, and then one of Richard’s drones chimes in to say that the work is flawless despite the massive amounts of errors.
How is a winning screenplay going to be divined from this mess?
I’ve also found another possible problem.
When revisions are removed by Amazon (after an author complains, justified, or not), now it says, “Removed by Amazon” in the script listing, but still shows up.
Why didn’t Amazon just remove the whole listing?
If someone wanted to sandbag someone else’s script, all they would have to do is sign up with the same user id as their “target”, upload ten versions of the same script, which would then be removed by Amazon, but would show “Removed by Amazon,” which would look bad for the original author as it would have his/her user name. (Why were the revisions removed? Readers would wonder).
Remember, the readers/judges are most likely NOT going to have any access to the admin information about the project (why was the revisions removed from the site, etc.)
The biggest problem Amazon is going to face sooner or later, is a Script DoS, where a group of people decide to upload their “revisions” to a particular project to sandbag it, OR just because they’re goofing around. I’ve seen it happen with all sorts of contests in the past, even American Idol.
The biggest issue revisions face are the sandbagging by the original author’s friends and family. Even if the revision is AMAZING, it’s still going to get ravaged by the original author and his/her “fans.”
Lastly, yes, “Dick” did indeed post that he was contacted by several development exec. and production companies. If that was the case then he wouldn’t be wasting his time tirelessly promoting a script on Amazon; it’s locking in, either he’s going to win, or not win; it’s Amazon’s script now.
I know this is a little off topic, Craig – so please forgive me – I was just wondering what Ted Elliott is up to? We haven’t heard from him in a while. How is Pirates of The Caribbean – On Stranger Tides going?
But more importantly – is anything happening with the project that he’s producing called “Jingle”?
I see he’s developing it with Sandra Bullock’s prod co…
Cheers and thanks. C.R.D
Why is it that every screenwriter thinks they are sitting on millions of dollars of ‘undiscovered’ scripts? I would bet money that no one here has ever had their story made into a major motion picture.
Everyone is seems to be a scriptwriter these days, and most everyone seems to ‘know someone’ but none of them are ever getting studios to make movies from their scripts.
I see this Amazon thing as an opportunity for someone to get some recognition if they want it. If not, keep sittin’ on those amazing scripts.
You, Buck,
“Everyone is seems”…, what does that mean exactly?
And…, out of all of the artistic pursuits, painting, music, …etc, screenwriting is pursued by the least amount of people in comparison, the last time I checked. Correct me if I’m wrong.
But…, there are probably more house wives doing water colors, then there are screen plays submitted or solicited.
And.., if there a problem with not getting a script made, buy yourself a camera, and do it yourself. That’s what M. Knight did.
Stage, no offense, just an observation. I’m a cinematographer shooting my own stuff, not a script writer. I know a lot of script writers, some very good, but I’ve never known one to get a major production deal, as in the hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. I even frequent the popular video forums and the same is true there.
I admire script writers, but they’re the biggest dreamers in the industry. Not that that’s a bad thing, but really, writers are upset here because Amazon is offering an alternative approach, as if all their scripts would make big money and Amazon wants to take it away from them through a scam? Hardly. A few handfuls of scripts make it to the big screen, and most of those are projects of the directors/producers/studios themselves, not from “Joe Scriptwriter” who has a great story.
People are mentioning Warner Bros, etc., and getting taken by Amazon when 95% of these scripts won’t even be no-budget productions seen by their own families. Again, just my observations. As a professional photographer I see the same thing with ‘photographers’ thinking their images are worth a lot of money and feel ripped off if someone uses it as a personal screensaver or something.
I can see there are legit concerns to point out over this Amazon thing, but tearing it apart as if Amazon will take their ‘sure thing’ million dollar script and suck you dry is non-sense. It’s just what it is, another possible option for making a name in a sea of no-names. There are tens of thousands of amazing scripts out there, just like amazing photographs… reality says they’ll just stay that way if you’re only outlet is going for a big studio purchase.
Buck, if you want to talk about “Dreamers” and delusional writers, then go and spend an hour reading through all the forums at Amazon… (particularly THE SCREENWRITING FORUM) OMG!! It is truly embarrassing, and very, very sad the way that these people ALL think they’re gonna win, ALL think that THEY are supremely talented, ALL think their script is the next AVATAR, and all think that they’ve been held back by the Hollywood system. Oh, and don’t even get me started on the way that they kiss up to Amazon and one another…. It’s really quite disturbing.
The MAJORITY of people who are on this forum (Craig Mazin’s) and John August’s and the like don’t go around telling everyone how wonderful they are, and that they’ve written the next best thing, and that they won’t upload their script on Amazon because they wont be able to sell it for 2 million dollars… They would be laughed off of here and John’s if they did so!.
What the majority of people on this site and John’s don’t like is that it is simply WRONG of Amazon to have a free option on your work for 18 months… Why do they need it?
I would love to enter the Amazon competition. But I simply won’t give a free option on my work. It’s morally and ethically wrong… I want to be able to at least shop it around during the next 18 months… I may not ever sell it… but with the Amazon deal – I can’t even TRY to sell it during those 18 months??
Now, if you are a winner on Amazon, and they give you $20,000, and THEN THEY HAVE AN OPTION on your work, then I think that most reasonable people would think that that’s okay.
Good points, no doubt, but I’m thinking the back-slapping and atta-boys on the submissions might be the most many of them will get for the screen plays, no matter how good they are.
As for 18 month options and all that, sure it’s ridiculously skewered in Amazon’s favor in the exceedingly rare event that they would exercise that option. I’ve entered and won many photography contests that have contracts that were ridicuously written in the favor of the publisher, and have made good money in doing so, and have never been treated unfairly. Many of these are big name publications. And in doing so have gotten a lot of publicity and business that I never would have received. Most of those ‘options’ people are often paranoid over will never take place. If someone is an established script writer making a living at it, sure, it’s a no-brainer to avoid. But for some it’s a valid option to take in establishing a name, an alternative approach rather than submitting to agents and studios and serious investors.
I don’t see any more harm in it than the guys who wrote/filmed Paranormal Activity with hardly any budget, sold to Paramount for a mere $350 grand (but staggering to them!), and it grossed nearly $200 mil worldwide for Paramount. Did Paramount scam them? No. Will those writers/actors/filmers who made it work for beans again? I doubt it.
But please, don’t take my comments as anything other than contributing to the discussion, I don’t mean to dis anyone, or their dreams or talents, and I’m admittedly by no means an expert in the realm of scripts. But I see what I see and had to open my mouth.
Buck:
The Paranormal Activity guys also received a ton of residuals for the movie. Certainly more in residuals than they made selling the film in the first place.
Amazon writers could easily not receive any residuals.
Buck,
I made no comment to Amazon.
My response was to your comments. “EVERYBODY SEEMS TO BE A SCRIPT WRITER THESE DAYS”/WHY IS IT THAT EVERY SCREENWRITER THINKS THEIR SITTING ON $1,000,000.
COME ON!
Not to be offensive, but that’s what you said. To categorize aspiring writers like that like that is CHILDISH.
As far as being the biggest dreamers in the industry, I really hope you mean, the MOVIE industry.
Have you seen AMERICAN IDOL? Personally I can’t stand it, but it makes an obvious point. EVERYBODY in the entertainment industry is dreaming big, and they all think their sitting on millions in artistic value.
MUSICIAN, ACTORS, they have it worst. Inside, somewhere, is a desire to be in the public view. Known. Identified. Popular. Famous! In essence there is a dream that everyone will love them.
And. Let’s not even get into the drugs involved specially with music. Last time my brother traveled and played bass with the Wailers, there was P** everywhere. This, also, is everywhere in the music industry. Studios and managers alike, supply it.
Everyone is into “their own” creations because it. Dreaming BIG.
Sure they have a vision, but I think those aspiring to write for the screen are dreaming like the rest of the art world.
Even like sports. Have you known professional boxers past their prime, telling everyone that their record is a result of his horrible and past promotors. I do, and it’s disgraceful, but happens everywhere.
Or better yet a photographer sh****** his pants with the questions, – quit my job, or continue to be miserable working it. 60% of every photo gallery premiere is packed with pursuit-ants having these ideas.
Trust me, I know them, my city is full of’em. No offense to them, in fact, keep dreaming!
The point is we all have our dreams. Not just writers, or surfers riding BIG waves. If you don’t think so, maybe you should get out more and network, meet these people. I don’t know your cinema career specifics, but maybe it might help it out.
Buck, the option agreement isn’t just “skewered in Amazon’s favor in the exceedingly rare event that they exercise that option” – it’s skewered in their favor even if you don’t win and have written an absolute turkey.
If you enter this competition – AS SOON AS YOU SEND YOUR SCRIPT IN TO AMAZON – THEY OWN IT FOR 18 MONTHS – IT IS AN IMMEDIATE OPTION….no, ifs or buts… It’s not dependent on whether you win or not.
You can’t do anything with it. That’s it for 18 months… You can’t sell it to anyone else… nothing…
As I said: If you get a chance go look at the Amazon “Writing Scripts Forum”… It’s truly, TRULY scary how delusional these people are…
But, hey… I don’t think anyone on here thinks you’re dissing anyone… I think your contributions have been interesting and polite.
Cheers.
Stage Check, you’re obviously taking this exceedingly serious beyond what my comments meant. Really, there’s nothing personal in my comments. I’m not being childish. I know many, many screen writers. Almost every extended family has a screenwriter in there who feels they’re on the verge of getting the next blockbuster. (excuse my semi-exaggerations but the point is made) I’m not a new kid on the block. I’m not even a kid. Allz I’m stating is the simple fact that there are lots and lots and lots of screenwriters. That’s not a bad thing. When I said “everyone is a screen writer” I was obviously meaning there are lots and lots and lots of them. And there are few few few few movies made. The odds of you (a generic ‘you’, not you personally) getting your script on the big screen through a major studio is almost nil, even if it really is rare blockbuster material. That’s not to pop any bubbles or dreams, that’s just reality. That’s not childish to state it.
A photographer can dream big, buy a $1,500 camera, shoot family portraits or landscapes or whatever and sell images to stock agencies and sell prints, etc., it’s not nearly as difficult for a photographer to make $$ than it is for a screen writer to get his script made into a big budget movie by Warner Bros. or Paramount. There are thousands of magazines needing photos, and books, and websites, and ad campaigns, etc., needing photos. It’s not THAT tough to break into photography, especially these days because the digital ‘level playing field’. But only a handful of major studios looking at scripts.
I see a big industry being made off the aspirations of screenwriters… seminars everywhere, how to books, agents asking thousands of $$ and promising to pitch to ‘decision makers’, etc., yet the odds are almost lottery-ish of scoring with a major studio. Of course there are how-to’s and industries based on other things too, even photography. It’s just natural, perhaps more so in the media-related industries, for people to think their work is worth untold $$’s. An amateur photographer can be approached by a magazine inquiring about use of one of their photos and all of a sudden they think it’s worth thousands of dollars (I see it all the time), when the going rate for a pro might even be $300 for such a pic. When I was getting established I even let National Geographic do a full page spread with one of my images as a foot in the door and it paid off big time… not by Nat Geo, but by those who saw it. In that case I didn’t have to give up my own ‘rights’ for 18 months, but I have done that with major postcard companies needing 5 year exclusive rights to images.
Simply stated, if the Amazon thing stinks to many, that’s fine. It’s obviously geared toward those who doubt they could put a stamp on their script and mail it to Warner Bros and get it read, or pay $20,000 to an agent to pitch it, etc. They just might be doing it as a foot in the door, some exposure. Even if the script goes big and they aren’t rewarded financially very well, trust me, it goes on their resume. And how big your previous stuff went can go a long way in the media business.
I hope you don’t take these as fightin’ words, but rather common sense.
Buck,
I’m gone after this. Apparently this is turning into a some strange delusion. For who, I don’t know.
I understand the nature of the movie industry, pertaining to getting scripts made, and the last time I searched, the hollywood industry (without certain specifications) is not losing sleep because of it.
This is the nature of this business. Movies are manmade and not a God given right. So…, if industry heads feel the need to produce little out of many scripts, that’s their prerogative. Aspiring screenwriters are signing up to be against these odds. It’s pointless to express how hopeless it is, or how common it is. They already KNOW! WORST, you say you don’t even write! So give’em a break and let them DREAM!
Further, it’s not necessarily because they (hollywood) just want to produce little. 1. How many movies (in theater) will the average person see in a year, even if they see everything they want to? 2. it takes money to produce at a certain level, and….,
3. ONE producer COULD spend three years of his entire life on that production.
Further, with ALL DUE respect, I didn’t take anything out of the context of what you’ve said. Nor do I take offense.
The reality is, by going back and reading, this is what you’ve said, “WHY IS IT THAT EVERY (every? bold word) SCREENWRITER THINKS THAT THEY ARE SITTING ON $1,000,000. (post #205)
Not, the screenwriters I know, or the ones finishing their very first script…etc. And seeing that you’ve posted nothing prior to this comment (correct me if I’m wrong), you’re obviously making a comment against SCREENWRITERS, like the ones YOU know. Which is odd, because no one is considered a SCREENWRITER until their work…., well, hits the screen.
And. Again, those were the WORDS you used.
NO disrespect! So far I’ve come to think of Craig’s site as a place with a decent exchange of ideas — not trifle quarreling.
So like I said earlier, I’m done. Apparently this is turning into a some strange delusion.
It seems odd, I’m sure you have progressively positive intentions, – but maybe I shouldn’t take literal words used, literally? LITERALLY?
Ah, anyway……………..,
Cheers.
Stage, we apparently are talking two different things, either that or you are making statements that back up exactly what I’m saying.
You say… “This is the nature of this business. Movies are manmade and not a God given right. So…, if industry heads feel the need to produce little out of many scripts, that’s their prerogative. Aspiring screenwriters are signing up to be against these odds.”
I say amen. And I also say, if aspiring screenwriters also want to take an alternative approach through something like the Amazon option, rather than praying for the goliath studios to find their gem needle in the haystack, that’s not necessarily a bad thing. The more choices the better and not every choice is best for everyone. For some, Amazon is actually providing an opportunity. For you, perhaps not. That’s all I’m saying.
Peace out.
Buck,
FWIW, I don’t think it’s fair to compare selling exclusive rights to a photograph (or even a set of photographs) to selling exclusive rights to a script that likely took a year to write and revise.
Also, the Amazon “option” amounts to a permanent option, because after the initial 18 months, Amazon retains non-exclusive rights in perpetuity (see section 6.1.2 of the contract). Who’s going to buy a script that Amazon essentially co-owns?
what is the worst that can happen if you tell them to delete your script & test movie and then I go and post it on youtube and distribute it around? can amazon sue us and if so…..what is the worst that can happen????
what can you do to protect yourself now if you sent in your work to amazon studios?? also if you want to pitch/distribute your works after you sent it to amazon??
Yes Amazon could sue, if there were any damages to sue for, so unless you actually sold it you are in the clear (deep pockets rule applies, no one sues paupers). You could even option it & never be found out… unless it were an option that was exercised. Then your name would be MUD in the small circle that matters, and you’d lose the income to Amazon’s suit anyway. IMHO the fact anyone would consider using such a crap deal as the Amazon ‘studio’ (it’s not a studio, let’s at least be clear on that, ok?) speaks far more of writer aspirations and desperations than it does anything else. So few people are actually willing to train at their craft today, demanding instant gratification while forgoing the training that would open a path to great work, it’s sad. Who wants to be an artist who suffers for their art these days? No one. But who wants to produce great art? Everyone. Some of the greatest artists produced only one or two great works (Melville comes to mind) in their lifetime, and died penniless and unappreciated in their own time. But these were men of character, who lived for the art itself and not for what benefits it might bring with it. Being concerned with fucking actresses or anyone else wouldn’t even occur to the greats, because their art was their seductress and their mistress. The number of people who envision themselves suited for this microscopic industry is out of scale with opportunities, and guarantees large scale failure ($5bb in overall annual revenues is a drop in the chamber pot relative to more mundane businesses, for example nuts & bolts manufacture which last time I looked years ago topped $130bb). Everyone may have a story, but not everyone can tell it. And whining about it, or seeking miracles through crap deals like Amazon’s is a sign of desperation, a short step away from capitulation (and a bus ticket home). More should have heeded Grandpa’s advice when he said that anything worth doing is worth doing right. Who knew he wasn’t just talking about the soapbox derby car we were making, but was talking about a way of life?
J.D.,
What’s wrong with boinking actresses!?
Okay, but J.D., you make a great point. Love the craft, and even more, the pursuit (pursuit mind you) of perfection.
Who’s that writer Syd Field brings up in Screenplay? Ahh…, F. Scott Fitzgerald, “drinking far too much, deeply in debt, and drowning in the suffocating well of despair, moved to Hollywood seeking new beginnings (!financial ones!)…,” Or so on Syd went.
A good example of the position, when pursuing this, primarily and initially for financial gains. This is, my view of course.
Those who chase this type of craft, in the sense of longevity, I believe should have a love for it. Lately, I write just to make the time go by. Writing, oddly, has become my entertainment. It doesn’t matter if it sales, taking the edge off of my mind.
But, when “these” financial expectation disappears, it becomes strange to me, in a sense. At times, I feel like some kind of loser, asking myself, “Why am I doing this”?
“Couldn’t I use my spare time to make some extra money on the side”?
But, oddly, I met a great musician once, at a pawn shop of all places. He changed my views completely on doing something out of pride and true interest. What got me in the shop was curiosity. Their were REAL vintage guitars in the window.
And there he was, behind the counter, playing some of his own blues. He’s about twice my age. At first, all I thought was, “WHAT the hell keeps him going”?
Then, I picked up an acoustic, joining his impr’ave, to his surprise. Sure enough, after the love we shared, (ours interest in the guitar) I was invited to an exclusive and live venue. It was set up just for me and the house band, every Tuesday night.
The thing is, what brought me into the store was my love and interest in guitars, not my expectations in being rich, or MAKING IT in any sense.
As you pointed clearly, love it, and seek it not for the superficial gains. Who knows where that love will take you.
Interesting twist – charging writers to make a test movie
http://studios.amazon.com/discussions/Tx2U4L95CH6BLDC
Wow, great article.
It’s interesting that I read here many saying “it’s not about the money, it’s about the created art” while protesting about the money?
Maybe for some it’s ‘not about the money’ and they just want their script known? Read? Appreciated? And this ‘may’ be an appropriate vehicle for them, maybe not. All rewards are not monetary.
As for the ‘charging writers’ to make a test movie… they’re not charging writers, it sounds like they’re providing an opportunity, a service if you ‘choose’, for someone to make a flick out of it ‘for you’. Cameras and lighting and editing are not free… should anyone who writes a script feel obligated someone will buy cameras, provide talent, audio gear, lighting, editing, etc., for free? It’s just a service ‘if’ wanted and it costs actual money. If it’s offered, they’re not ‘charging’ you anymore than McDonald’s is charging you for a burger and fries. I know I have invested over $80 grand in this video equipment and it’s surprising the number of ‘no budget’ offers I get from script writers who want me to make their script into a movie. I can’t do it time-wise nor moolah-wise, I have to use my gear to pay the bills.
It sounds like this whole Amazon thing is for small-time writers just wanting some sort of action, or if a writer is sitting on a bunch of scripts and wants to toss one to the sharks for kicks and giggles. I don’t think anyone is getting rich off you guys.
Buck, no-one has commented on this forum (seriously that is) regarding the Amazon thing in ages.
One person came on here and posted some link to Amazon about someone charging to do test films? Nobody here has even commented on it… Or said “boo” about money.
Oh. One person said: “Wow. Great article.”
So, honestly, it now just looks like you’re coming on here and trying to stir the pot, when there’s just no pot to be stirred any longer…
You’ve made your point several times on this forum, why don’t you just let it go?
I know we all have…
Can’t we all just…, let it go?
Hey The Truth, I don’t really frequent this forum, just checkin’ it out now and then, I like you guys, I just made a comment about people complaining about “the money” and then turning around and saying “scripts aren’t about the money, it’s about the art”, which I think is a legit thing to point out considering the main complaint is about moolah. And then I also commented on the ‘two posts’ about a production company offering services. I dig talking shop. If you don’t like different perspectives, it’s fine, I have no ties here and I’ll move right along. Still, I like you guys. Take care.
Buck,
EVERYTHING is about money. However, if one can make it one way, they won’t have to rely on it in another.
Not every writer writes with the pursuit of monetary gain in the uppermost parts of their minds.
Since you happen to do photography, and I happen to know a lot of photographers, (I own a NIKON D-5000 myself) many of them, like my friend, a Micro-Soft programmer, does it recreationally.
An accomplishment onto himself.
Art is art.
For the viewers (audience) especially. They have no financial desire of obtainment, just the enjoyment of ART.
AND no disrespect, I could be commenting on something you didn’t say. There are about 1,000 commas in your first sentence, so I lost myself in the post.
Sir…, Craig Mazin,
I noticed, the date that comments will be closed, changes repeatedly. Is this by default, triggered by the continued posting on this topic, or another mechanism?
We’ve taken a lot of time and thoroughly sifted through every aspect of the Amazon studios contest over the past month and a half and come up with our suggestions on how to fix contest for the betterment of everyone involved.
http://theauditorz.wordpress.com/2011/01/04/how-to-fix-amazon-studios/
The Auditors,
http://theauditorz.wordpress.com/2011/01/04/how-to-fix-amazon-studios/
D**n, that’s some real ANTI-Amazon!
Wow, Auditors… have much time on your hands?
You make some good points, but are you like Roy Price’s ex-wife or something? I get that Amazon kicked you out for posting inappropriate forums, revisions and reviews, but you’re taking it way to far.
For all your posturing, you haven’t used your real name once, which means YOU ACTUALLY HAVE A SCRIPT AT AMAZON. You’re just a contestant who is pissed that nobody liked your Santa movie.
I’ll ask everyone on this board… who is more pathetic? The people who take a chance on a shady contest OR the people who build websites to criticize those people.
Get a life, dude. Really.
There is no way that the post from “Vac Man” above is actually from the “REAL VAC MAN” that it is pretending to be. It is simply not: pompous, condescending, bullying, know it-all-ish, disrespectful and darn right delusional enough to be from the REAL VAC MAN. Plus, the person did not use the terms “Stop trolling” and “stop stalking me” -which are the REAL VAC MAN’S absolute favorite phrases of choice…
The real Vac Man NEVER uses terms like “Dude” – it’s just not his style… It would be “beneath” him…
To be honest, the above “fake” Vac Man entry looks very suspiciously in the style of the highest profile person on Amazon… who uses the terms “Dude” and “you’re the bomb” and “that’s dope” very frequently…
Of course, I can’t prove this… But the style of the entry above just does not fit “The Real Vac Man.”
So, I guess the real question should be: Who is the more pathetic?
1) A person who creates a website to criticize the people who enter Amazon…. or
2) Someone who comes onto Craig Mazin’s web site and pretends to be someone else?
You all be the judge…
Oh I’m sorry, Truth… That’s your given name, is it?
And imagine the bravery of AUDITORZ using his real name too.
It’s obvious you’re the same dude and The Vac Man thinks you both suck.
You’re not helping anyone by attacking real writers.
Auditorz / Truth didn’t object to Amazon when they joined. It was when they got kicked out of Amazon for cheating that it all went South. AUDITORZ has said multiple times in his many rants he won’t reveal his true identity in fear of getting flammed on Amazon because HE IS A CONTESTANT that’s bitter nobody likes his Star Wars fan fiction. A sore loser who couldn’t get along with the 2000 other writers at Amazon and now has created an entire website to sulk.
He needs to get out of his Mother’s basement, give up his Princess Leia sex doll and get a life.
OR
Throw a link up a screenplay here. Let this group read it and see what makes you an authority. Show us all your superior skill.
Oh I forgot, all you do talk. Pathetic.
Hilarious. You’re all losers with too much time on your hands.
Good post… Vac Man…
Oh and no, I am not Shane B. I, like you, figured out that The Auditorz was infact him quite a while ago. I have read his Santa script and didn’t particularly like it either… I didn’t hate it, but I didn’t like it.
Oh, and if you go through my previous posts under The Truth is Out There on this forum you will clearly see that I have not been bad mouthing the Amazon competition for quite a while…
I let go of criticizing it…
It’s up to you if you enter it. I think good luck to anyone who enters it.
Of course, The Truth is Out There isn’t my name, but I’m not coming on here (like you) putting up posts so that people will think that it’s from someone else in the fisrt place…
You are not S.H – and you know it…
Oh, and, no, I don’t have a script on Amazon, as I don’t like the 18 month option – otherwise I would have definitely entered it.
So good attempt at trying to I.D me… But you’re wrong. I would suggest that you go back to Amazon and continue to manipulate the forums to your own advantage…
You’re very good at it…
“So good attempt at trying to I.D me… But you’re wrong. I would suggest that you go back to Amazon and continue to manipulate the forums to your own advantage…”
THAT’S A BINGO!! I love how when people are caught being liars, they all the sudden adopt this scholarly, matter-of-fact tone, as they throw 7 kinds of smoke to cover their tracks. It’s okay. I get that this is your hobby. Nobody takes you seriously anyway.
By the way, I love how you’ve concocted this narrative where you SHOULD have been successful on Amazon but for the evil puppeteer who controls the whole site. It sounds perfectly logical and rational… any thoughts on UFOs? Masons? Black Helicopters? You’re so deep in it that I couldn’t be anyone else but the puppetmaster himself come to undo you. Why am I second fiddle? I’m just as all-powerful. I have minions! Craig Mazin is one of them. He’s letting me do this to you. He’s been manipulated by my power…
VAC MAN HAS SUCKED OUT HIS BRAIN!!!!!!!
Please keep going. Skip your meds today and share every conspiracy theory in your head. Wait… didn’t Vac Man and the entire Amazon Top 10 kill Kennedy? You can tell us. We know you know the truth.
So, tell me something? Why are you pretending to be Stephen H? What has he done to you? I’m sure he’d be just delighted that you’re setting him up… Why would one of his buddies do that to him?
If I were S. Berryhill – why, oh why, would I put my name up here – if – as you said: “I am scared of retribution from Amazon people?”
I’m not in the competition R.S… I don’t have a script entered, R.S
Anyway, as Tuck said: We are both losers with too much time on our hands.”
And since I agree with Tuck, I will gracefully withdraw from our discussion – as much as I am enjoying it, but it is only a matter of time before Craig comes on here and tells us to tone it down and shut up or we’ll be deleted…or banned…
Good luck in the competition R.S…
I’ve never said who I am. YOU decided that I must be RS or SH.
And since you brought it up, why are you always talking about him? You what’s interesting, is that in all the examples you use on your website and on this board, RS’s name and his project are the only ones that come up. Why do you have such an axe to grind with this guy? Did this guy sleep with your wife or something? Or…
ARE YOU RS???
Now follow me here. I’ve been thinking about this for a while and it would make perfect sense that RS would create this controversy for his own project as a means of promotion. After all, there is no such thing as bad press. His project wasn’t #1 when all these attacks started, but it sure is now. In one brilliant maneuver, RS has both elevated his own work and created a platform shoot down others.
He is clearly second only to Oprah Winfrey, or perhaps Rachel Ray, in media savvy and unlimited appetite for power.
I think RS may well be the most dangerous man alive. He’s unstoppable. With such power he could topple governments, crumble financial institutions, but instead he’s gone after the jewel in the crown… Hollywood. Placing himself atop Amazon Studios, he is now positioned to puppeteer the whole of La-La Land.
And the best part is that his script SUCKS. It’s the worst piece of crap I’ve ever read. You all should read it just to see how bad it really is.
Resist him. Do not utter his name. Fear his wrath. Whatever you do, don’t say his name in the dark three times or… a fat gamer who has never been laid will appear on your couch and eat all your Cheetos.
The horror. The horror.
Yadda yadda yadda.
I KNOW you’re not S.H… S.H always says who he is. He makes a point of doing so, and makes a point of berating those who don’t use their real names.
Anyway, as I said: I ain’t playin’ your game anymore… Ciao…
It is strange that this guy’s name keeps coming up over, and over, and over again.
This whole thing smells fishy.
I’ve vanquished The Truth and plunged all of Craig Mazin’s minons into darkness.
I am the puppetmaster, RS!!!!
Hide your Cheetos and Star Wars fan fiction (hilarious). Your mother’s basement will not protect you from my wrath!
Giggity, giggity.
But I know, that you know, that I know, that you know how SH signs his messages.
I’m inside your brain, man. It’s dark and surprisingly spacious. There are mushrooms growing and stacks of old Hooty and The Blowfish CDs.
COMING SOON
The Auditorz of Craig Mazin!!!
I love it!
You guys stopped me from playing the new starcraft. It doesn’t matter though, Zergs can’t be beat, and I have to much dignity to allow failure to convert me, becoming one of them.
Instead, I’ll become one of you.
Both of you…
Since niether one of you has released their true identity, then you both can be considered fakes. If not, definitly hidding something.
WOW! What a game of clue. In fact, now I’m sharing in your high from literary battle. Oh the rush! The chance to out do! Out speak! (Give me something to shoot!)
Me? I’m a man, hansome, and likes women. They like me too.
In fact, I could bet, hmm…, $ a good wager, that I can prove these things about me, including my name.
NOW, one of you dare to do the same!
“Me? I’m a man, hansome, and likes women. They like me too.”
You must be RS too!
Seriously. What if… RS and SH are the same person. I mean almost every other person on the Amazon Top 10 have appeared in other contest. RS came out of nowhere. SH is brilliant and cunning… what if he invented RS???
Give it up. We all know that RS is really Craig Mazin. That’s why he’s let this stupid thread go on FOREVER.
Look no further. All the entertainment in world could not amount up to this.
Oh, what the internet CAT brought in!
The best part…, the pride you guys receive from this.
I mean, who in online heaven, even cares about your ranting and raving?
Which means, face to face, your cowards.
No names, no credibility. I asked you guys to present yourselves, but no, the real world is must too REAL for that. You know, no false personas to hide behind?
It humors me though. No matter how much sense a person can convey to Perps like you, you hunger for your justification, feeding literally on nothingness.
At most, I will provoke you (even at my own expense, it’s that entertaining!) because you are like entertaining dogs chasing your own tails.
It’s very pointless, but you can’t stop doing it!
Please, respond back! Make my amusment. Mwah!
Oh, it’s nothing but amusement. I laugh at most of what I read on this board about Amazon, because for all the grandstanding, and chest thumping, all these people have scripts entered.
The Auditorz / Truth are just such frustrated little trolls. One must call them out to reveal the absurdity of their work and claims from time to time.
Their latest quest for “betterment” of the Amazon website has them randomly selecting projects and filling them up with bogus reviews to mess with the rankings. Amazon already figured it out, though and is deleting their mess.
I can hear grumbling from Mom’s basement now…
Hilarious… the battle continues on TheAuditorz website:
theauditorz says: January 6, 2011 at 9:37 am We are greater than any one person. Stephen, the cold hard truth is that very few people can actually write a MOVIE. Anyone can write a screenplay, but very few people today can visualize a movie and then translate into the written word and have it not totally suck. This means that most of the entries into the Amazon contest are going to be beyond horrible. This is how it is in the real world, why should it be any different in the Amazon Contest?
We would venture to say that there is a much higher percentage of terrible screenplays entered into the Amazon Contest because it’s free. But, the writers with actual talent are staying far, far away from the contest.
Some of us have scripts up, but have zero downloads and zero reviews. We are testing to see if Amazon does indeed read our scripts, since the thought is that Amazon does indeed read all of them. We also do have shitty screenplays that should have been buried and never seen the light of day ever again, just like most of the other entrants into the contest.
It should not make a difference if we’re on the front page, or the last screenplay, if Amazon is indeed looking for quality, and does actually read ALL of the screenplays.
We could easily game the system at Amazon and even knock “Villain” out from the number one spot, but there’s no point in that. We want Amazon to succeed and to get rid of all of the bullshit games that obviously already prevail on the site currently.
Reply Stephen Hoover says: January 7, 2011 at 2:22 am Actually, you couldn’t do anything but cheat. You tried to sink several scripts by breaking the rules and slamming them on Amazon. Then you got kicked out of the site and banned. You don’t want to improve Amazon, you want to destroy it because nobody liked your script.
In fact, you have such a colossal axe to grind you built a whole website. With so many “facts” that you’re still embarrassed to sign your name. You know why people don’t sign their names? Because they’re liars.
I dare you to try to knock any of the top 5 scripts down. If you actually had a script as good as any of the top 5 you would have done it.
Reply theauditorz says: January 7, 2011 at 5:37 am Stephen we were not trying to cheat, as we’re not actively trying to win the contest.
We also didn’t try to sink any scripts. It would not have made any difference anyway. Amazon has already realized that the “audience metrics” are totally useless in an unverified system that only the entrants and friends of families of entrants use.
Also, we don’t care what some noob screenwriters think of our screenplays. If Shane Black showed up and said, “I hate you, and I hate your screenplays, you suck.” then perhaps we might be upset, or sad. But having noob wannabes pissing all over our screenplays, OR giving us false praise does not phase us either way.
We actually left random reviews on a lot of projects to see how the authors would respond. We found that even if we left very detailed reviews, with notes and suggestions, BUT didn’t leave five stars, the author would email us and complain. We found that the higher up the ranking the script was, the more pain in the ass the authors were.
What we did do is emulate what a 14 year old would do, and were amazed at the problems and holes in the contest, like being able to change your user id to any other user id.
All of our points are valid and you know they are. Please feel free to point out our mistakes.
Reply Stephen Hoover says: January 7, 2011 at 6:22 am So let me get this straight, you admit:
That’s cheating! Whether you like the mechanisms they have for enforcement or not, everything you did violates the Amazon user agreement. You keep accusing others of these things, but Amazon has never found them doing anything wrong. Only you. That is why you are banned. You’re deliberately gaming the system and hurting other people and their work.
And you’re angry because nobody wants to take your reviews and feedback seriously? Rather than trying to scam everybody, why don’t you actually take them time to know people. Earn their trust, and then collaborate. I’ve seen your posts – they’re creepy. Stop posting false reviews. Stop pumping up the rankings of projects for laughs. Just stop taking a piss and pretending you’re doing it for some greater good.
And I do believe you’re lying when you say you don’t have a script or multiple scripts posted. You admitted as much earlier in this thread and backpedaled. I think this whole thing started because you and your collaborators are angry you weren’t embraced by the community. Try to play it fair and see what happens.
Guys, please stop. Immediately.
Boredom caused me to read most of these posts.
Reading most of these posts caused me to place my penis on the arm of a dinner chair and smash it flat with a steel plate. (meaning a plate made of steel)
@ Stephen Hoover. You say… “I think this whole thing started because you and your collaborators are angry you weren’t embraced by the community. Try to play it fair and see what happens.”
You think Amazon is fair?
I would like to sincerely apologize to Richard Stern, who is on the Amazon Studios site – with a very good screenplay. I incorrectly accused VAC MAN yesterday of actually being R.S (or Richard Stern)… And this does not appear to have been the case…
I went onto the Auditorz web site this morning, and it appears that the “suspicious” entry (#230 on THIS site) that I thought was from Richard in the first place – and started this heated debate on Craig’s site, was infact from Stephen Hoover. The very person that I thought Richard was pretending to be…
So, with that said… Stephen… Enough is enough… From both of us. Let’s not put the poor folk on this forum through any more garbage…
I said that I would drop the discussion on post #238 yesterday, and that’s exactly what I did… I have not posted another entry until today…And this is only to apologize to Richard Stern…
Again, Richard… I am truly sorry…
I would also like to apologize to S. Berryhill… I only mentioned your name yesterday as I was trying to prove to Stephen (aka VAC MAN) that “The Truth is Out There” is NOT you. It only, however, appeared to make Stephen more certain that it was you… which was not my intention.
Anyway, you know that it wasn’t you… So I hope you will accept my apology…
Cheers. (And I promise you wont hear another peep outta me regarding Amazon on Craig Mazin’s site again.)
So the guy, who was impersonating another guy, wrongly accused yet another guy of impersonating someone else. Craig, are you following this?
Tuck, I wasn’t impersonating anyone – I’m just The Truth is Out there, and I made a mistake, and I apologized for that mistake… And for me… that’s the end of it.
I also agreed with you yesterday that we (Vac & I) were both “losers with too much time on our hands.”
Don’t apologize to Richard, he’s an bleep-hole, and Stephen is innocent as far as we can see. It FEELS like Stern’s handiwork in this mess.
The “Evidence” is below.
We just checked back here at the Artful Writer for the first time since we posted our new link and we are amazed at the SH*T that it has stirred up. Well, in fairness, it is VAC MAN that’s stirred it up.
We decided to check the IP address that posted as “VAC MAN” on our site and found this:
Stephen Hoover (stephen@hoover.com) [obviously fake]
“75.94.235.146 US UNITED STATES GEORGIA CLEARWIRE US LLC”
Last time we checked, Stephen Hoover lives in Baton Rouge, Louisiana and RICHARD STERN lives in GEORGIA.
Pretty damn sneaky if you ask us.
Apparently, Stern tried to goad us into launching an “offensive” on Stephen Hoover’s account/projects by pretending to be Hoover, and trying to antagonize us, even though Hoover (as far as we can see) has never done anything but be supportive of Stern and his project.
The reason?
The only thing we can think of, is to knock out the competition.
Ironic that just a month ago Stern was defending himself against “accusations” that he had a very disproportional number of five star reviews.
Here’s the tail end of that rant, which is still up on one of his nine hundred forums on his project page.
Notice the similarity in writing styles between what Stern wrote below, and what “Vac Man” wrote?
“Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?
In addition to you false allegations, I believe you have broken several of the GENERAL GUIDELINES that govern this site, both by creating this forum under the name “Sleuth”, and with posts you made yesterday under the name “Richard W” .
They are: • Be yourself. • Don’t game the community. • No creepy behavior. You’ve also violated the Amazon discussion guidelines, specifically:
• No inflammatory or spiteful comments • No messages that abuse or denigrate • No personal info about children under 13 (aka my kids) • No repeated posts that make the same point excessively • No repeated unwelcome messages that harass or embarrass other participants
In short, you broke the rules. You’re a cheater. More fundamentally, your actions violate what this community is suppose to be about – and who we are suppose to be as writers.
I fully intend to work with Amazon to identify you and your project entry – whether it be through your IP address or other means – and have your removed from competition.
Do the right thing. Fess up. Apologize sincerely with your real name, admit you made a mistake and know that I will accept and let this drop.
SIGNED, Richard Stern”
It is Ironic how Stern said that he was going to work with Amazon to find out “Sleuth’s” IP address and have him removed from the contest, but now has been undone by his own IP address.
As we said in our post on how to fix A.S. NONE OF THIS BULLSTEIN MATTERS! It is not a popularity contest. Either your script has merit, or it fails. There is no in between. You can’t trick Amazon into buying your screenplay by having a lot of five star reviews left by your friends and family. Amazon figured that out in like week two of the contest.
Also, constantly posting meaningless revisions to your project can only WEAKEN your standing in the contest, especially if some intern/kid has to read the 15th revision of your script because you were too lazy to use a fargin’ word processor to check for SPELLING ERRORS, yet still submitted 14 other previous drafts with the same mistakes despite people pointing out those mistakes to you weeks prior.
Amazon just announced that there are going to be FIFTY semifinalists announced on the 17th, which is going to be our post on the blog tonight.
As for Stern, he’s become like his titular screenplay; “The Villain.”
Sorry about the duplicate post, we were trying to edit, and created a double post.
Don’t apologize to Richard, he’s an bleep-hole, and Stephen is innocent as far as we can see. It FEELS like Stern’s handiwork in this mess.
The “Evidence” is below.
We just checked back here at the Artful Writer for the first time since we posted our new link and we are amazed at the SH*T that it has stirred up. Well, in fairness, it is VAC MAN that’s stirred it up.
We decided to check the IP address that posted as “Stephen Hoover” on our site and found this:
Stephen Hoover (stephen@hoover.com) [obviously fake]
“75.94.235.146 US UNITED STATES GEORGIA CLEARWIRE US LLC”
As far as we can see, Stephen Hoover lives in Baton Rouge, Louisiana and RICHARD STERN lives in GEORGIA.
Pretty damn sneaky if you ask us.
Apparently, Stern tried to goad us into launching an “offensive” on Stephen Hoover’s account/projects by pretending to be Hoover, and trying to antagonize us, even though Hoover (as far as we can see) has never done anything but be supportive of Stern and his project.
We covered this very problem in our first post on the blog, detailing all of the problems with the contest.
Why would Stern apparently try to paint a bullseye on Stephen Hoover?
The only thing we can think of, is to knock Stephen out the competition, or to lower his ranking.
Ironic that just a month ago Stern was defending himself against “accusations” that he had a very disproportional number of five star reviews.
Here’s the tail end of that rant, which is still up on one of his nine hundred forums on his project page.
Notice the similarity in writing styles between what Stern wrote below, and what “Vac Man” wrote?
“Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?
In addition to you false allegations, I believe you have broken several of the GENERAL GUIDELINES that govern this site, both by creating this forum under the name “Sleuth”, and with posts you made yesterday under the name “Richard W” .
They are: • Be yourself.
• Don’t game the community.
• No creepy behavior.
You’ve also violated the Amazon discussion guidelines, specifically:
• No inflammatory or spiteful comments
• No messages that abuse or denigrate
• No personal info about children under 13 (aka my kids)
• No repeated posts that make the same point excessively
• No repeated unwelcome messages that harass or embarrass other participants
In short, you broke the rules. You’re a cheater. More fundamentally, your actions violate what this community is suppose to be about – and who we are suppose to be as writers.
I fully intend to work with Amazon to identify you and your project entry – whether it be through your IP address or other means – and have your removed from competition.
Do the right thing. Fess up. Apologize sincerely with your real name, admit you made a mistake and know that I will accept and let this drop.
SIGNED, Richard Stern”
It is Ironic how Stern said that he was going to work with Amazon to find out “Sleuth’s” IP address and have him removed from the contest, but now has been undone by his own IP address.
As we said in our post on how to fix A.S. NONE OF THIS BULLSTEIN MATTERS! It is not a popularity contest. Either your script has merit, or it fails. There is no in between. You can’t trick Amazon into buying your screenplay by having a lot of five star reviews left by your friends and family. Amazon figured that out in like week two of the contest.
Also, constantly posting meaningless revisions to your project can only WEAKEN your standing in the contest, especially if some intern/kid has to read the 15th revision of your script because you were too lazy to use a fargin’ word processor to check for SPELLING ERRORS, yet still submitted 14 other previous drafts with the same mistakes despite people pointing out those mistakes to you weeks prior.
Amazon just announced that there are going to be FIFTY semifinalists announced on the 17th, which is going to be our post on the blog tonight.
As for Stern, he’s become like his titular screenplay; “The Villain.”
Uh, so, let me get this straight. Stern caught you lying and cheating, called you on it, then you got kicked off Amazon. Now you’re coming here to bad mouth him, because you’re convinced that he assumed a false identity (which you do too, apparently) to once again prove you were lying and cheating?
This was on an episode of Melrose Place, I think.
I can’t follow the drama — it’s too complicated.
I posted a comment early in this conversation and then checked out of it. I’ve got three scripts posted on Amazon Studios. Understand the objections to the contest and understand the opportunities.
Wish everyone the best of luck and hope my “alter ego” doesn’t reappear again. Got enough trouble in the world with ONE Stephen Hoover in existence.
Have a great 2011, everyone!
ALL of the January, 2011 posts on this site are by people pretending to be me. (Check my IP address. I reside in BR, LA.)
Waaaaay too much strangeness.
Craig, please remove posts from the fake “me” as it is a violation of the Artful Writer terms.
Good time to shut down this thread, too.
I learned of this thread after receiving an email from Stephen and another from “The Truth” today.
I never post on this site, but this is my IP and email.
The personal attacks here, and throughout this thread, are really appauling and almost identical to those deleted by Amazon.
This is another smear campaign in a series of smear campaigns. Craig, please stop this.
Richard,
You say you “never post on this site,” but you have posted several times in the past.
MR. MAZIN, BEFORE YOU CLOSE THIS THREAD PLEASE LOOK AT POST #55 by Richard Stern.
If it has the IP address of:
75.94.235.146
Then it is the SAME PERSON who posted on our site impersonating Stephen Hoover. Logic would serve that if IP address 75.94.235.146 does indeed match up to post #55, then it is indeed the REAL Richard Stern, as Stern would have had no reason to mask his identity so early on in the Amazon contest (back on November 24th; post #55). Please let us know if this is indeed the case, as the person used Stephen Hoover’s real name.
Whomever posted on our site as Stephen Hoover MIGHT have used a proxy, but it is HIGHLY unlikely, as the IP belonged to a CLEARWIRE 4G user.
I have never posted on this site and my IP address is attached.
As a point of reference, Craig et al, the biographic tidbit about Caddyshack in that post is lifted directly from my Amazon profile.
Auditorz, I’m not sure why you’ve continually attacked me on this site and on yours, but I think this is more identity theft, just like when you created a Richard Stern account to impersonate me on Amazon.
Craig, could you please step in? I’m happy to supply my phone number to speak to you via email.
“The Real Richard Stern” just posted an identical post to the one above on our site. Here’s our response.
Richard,
Did you just move to Wichita Kansas? Because that’s what your IP address is telling us where you’re at.
How is it that the “Stephen Hoover” posts on our site came from the Atlanta, GA area where YOU are located,(I.P. 75.94.235.146) but the IP address you just posted on our site (and I assume this one) has suddenly changed to a KANSAS IP (166.137.14.97)?
http://www.ip-adress.com/ip_tracer/166.137.14.97
You also used an iPhone 4G to make this new post on our site.
Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_0 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/532.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0.5 Mobile/8A293 Safari/6531.22.7
So, our guess, when you originally posted on our site (and here, if Mr. Mazin verifies) you used a Clearwire account, but now are using a proxy server through an iPhone 4.
We use proxy servers for our posts on our site and here, but we generally use the same servers.
Don’t worry, Richard, our post on all this nonsense if forthcoming!
That is my IP address. I’m an ATT MicroCell customer. I’ve posted here and on your site using my iPad 3G. All AT&T addresses route all over their network. You’ll notice that on your trace route it clearly states the owner of this IP as ATT, so no proxy is in use.
I’m happy to verify that or you can simply check your own iPads.
Craig, I’ll ask again that you remove these posts, especially now that Auditorz has publically posted my personal IP address.
Craig,
This is like CATFISH for screenabes.
I am a registered user at The Artful Writer Forum. You can verify my IP from that. I’m sure I’ve posted in a previous thread here.
These, however, are the first posts I’ve put up on this thread. I am nor have I ever been Vac Man. I have never posted on the Auditor website other than request the false posts be removed, which he/she/it did promptly. (Appreciate it.)
I’ve had many email exchanges with Richard on the AS website and offsite. Consider him a friend and hope to meet up with him one day at an awards ceremony.
Not sure why the pot is being stirred as popularity/public votes/reviews have NOTHING to do with who wins the contest. They hired 20+ contest judges.
Please freeze this thread as it no longer has anything to do with a discussion of the Amazon contest. Thanks.
Stephen
http://wagstaffnet.blogspot.com/
I know why it is being stirred up, Stephen, but it has nothing to do with you and I.
I’m sorry the grudge that the Auditoz feels toward me has impacted you. You’re a great writer and collaborator.
Craig?
Frankly, I suspect that The Auditors is correct, and that one or more of you are lying or pretending to be people you’re not.
But I do agree that the drama is way off topic. So please hash it out somewhere else. The Auditor’s blog seems like a better venue.