Verrone & Young: More Important Than You

I’m unsure of the legality of this what with your WGAw membership status, but is there anyway you could actually leap-frog the guild and do this endorsment yourself as a collective group of independent screenwriters? The Artful itself has a ton of Pros and I’m sure your address book has countless more; is it not possible to take an individual incentive and cut out the guild and go straight to a company like HP because from what I’ve read that sounds like a fantastic idea, I think it’ll do a lot for public awareness.

It’s a real fine line though and I think you’re right, it’s the difference between celebrating writers and making them celebrities; the latter involving spending all your money on a walled compound and a crack-squad of bodyguards and security, the former simply gatting credit where credit is due.

Verrone & Young sound like George Bush. Thank God it was with HP and not Iraq.

But seriously folks…

What a shame. I’ve been advocating the use of publicity for writers for years and it’s always been a brick wall with the common consensus: Who Cares About The Screenwriter?

Here comes an actual effort and it goes bye-bye.

Craig, you might want to go into what product integration is exactly…

It’s maddening, though trivia. The real story is what a small percentage of the WGA membership actually votes and how many of those that did are fools snowed by a sophisticated organizing effort and “up is down” rhetoric into supporting incompetents who demonstrate time and time again that they don’t understand the underlying fundamentals of the industry they work in.

Agahno:

I’m sure Craig could do that, and it would be great for him and his cabal of fellow, rich, puppy-eating screenwriters. But it wouldn’t change the fact that our guild is operating with some very screwed-up priorities right now.

Craig,

I voted for these clowns. I got excited by the tough talk. Goddamn, am i disappointed…over and over again.

I think the Bush references are perfect too (if you’re not part of the 33% who support him). People are clinging to these guys the same way Bush supporters were holding out hope that the administration knew something the rest of the country didn’t.

Things just got worse and worse.

Do you think the Verrone administration is gonna sink us? Please don’t be dramatic because i’m very very very concerned. I need them to not wreck the car that has my career in it’s trunk (with you and Ted riding in the front seat).

ps.

I think in today’s celebrity culture, publicity for screenwriters is simply good business. We need some rock star writers—and i mean that.

Good night, Craig.

Sincerely,

M.L.B.

It’s maddening, though trivia. The real story is what a small percentage of the WGA membership actually votes and how many of those that did are fools snowed by a sophisticated organizing effort and “up is down” rhetoric into supporting incompetents who demonstrate time and time again that they don’t understand the underlying fundamentals of the industry they work in.

That’s not particular to the WGA. The mayor of my city, who never met an out-of-town developer he didn’t prefer to the quality of life of his own constituents, just got re-elected for a 4th term with something like 73% of the vote, which wasn’t a large percentage of registered voters at all.

Then there are the HOA elections, the national elections…pretty much any elections involving groups of more than about 7 people. That’s politics for ya.

MLB,

“I think in today’s celebrity culture, publicity for screenwriters is simply good business. We need some rock star writers—and i mean that.”

Sure. It always helps. What’s odd to me is the notion that our guild should take responsibility for that. I could be wrong, but I think most celebrities become celebrities on their own, although I suppose it’s possible the Drunk Useless Dingbat union has a fund specifically to maintain Paris Hilton’s visibility…

Here’s the real problem - there’s two types of writers. There’s the introverted hermits, who stay inside, write hard, and don’t do well with people. They’re never really gonna be rock stars. Then there’s the outgoing types, the A type personalities who are charming, gregarious, and take charge. We’ve had a few of those become rock stars, but the problem is, they ALSO usually become directors or actors, because people like that generally don’t like having someone else control their vision, and because directing and acting are easier and more fun than writing.

Tarantino’s a celebrity, but unfortunately, most people don’t think of him as a writer. Nobody gives a crap that Billy Bob Thornton’s a very great writer. And those Affleck and Damon kids wrote something folks liked at one point, I seem to recall.

Writing’s the toughest gig there is in this business. Everyone else gets to start with something in hand, but writers start with an empty page. That’s the fundamental difference between us and everyone else in Hollywood. It’s fucking hard, grueling, unpleasant work. Celebrity is power, it’s cache. So as a rule, the moment some writer achieves a bit of that, it’s hardly surprising that he jumps ship to something more glamorous and less difficult - acting, directing, singing opera, whatever. Charlie Kauffman’s three Premiere pieces away from starring in his own sitcom.

I guess I don’t mind that much if the Guild did something like that (especially for free), but I tend to have a fairly realistic view of the WGA, I think. I don’t expect them to find me jobs, I don’t expect them to negotiate my deals, and I don’t expect them to make me famous.

I expect them to provide me with insurance and benefits based on my dues; I expect them to send me a monthly magazine with some asshole I’ve never heard of on the cover talking about his damn movie; I expect them to protect some basic rights so I don’t have to worry about them. I’m sure there’s a few more things, but when it comes to managing careers, negotiating red carpets, dealing with publicity… I dunno, I just think there are people better suited to that sort of thing than the WGA.

(BTW, Craig - the doctors who are working on a cure to AIDS are given less public attention than a pilled-up Nicole Richie driving the wrong way on the 134 as well. Welcome to Sideshow America. Bring a bottle for the geek.)

Josh,

Will you sign a computer for me?

Dear MLB… If you voted for the current leadership, and you are angry and disappointed, then please - please - let them know. Communicate this to them. Communicate with the understanding that your comments to them will probably not make a difference, but at least you will have spoken out. You see -our leadership feels they have a mandate, which gives them the right to conduct business in any way they see fit. they feel that mandate has elevated them to a standing above that of the membership, and that we neither have to be consulted, nor asked before our guild name and resources are used. Never mind that they have a fiduciary responsibility to us. Never mind that most of us - including by the way, many board members - abhor the viral campaigns. Never mind any of this. There are those in our leadership who do what they want, and it is usually at the expense of our guild membership.

It’s time for voices to be raised, and for answers to be demanded. There is no excuse f or the lack of communication that has been the m.o. of this leadership. I’m constantly being told,’ they’re trying to figure it out.’ What’s to figure out? What does it take to communicate? to ask people for input? To actually listen to what we have to say. Especially when some of us have been through this before.

funny word , ‘Listen.’ Something that has yet to occur within our guild of late.

Let the leadership know how you feel. For anyone out there who is a member of our guild, and who feels this way - it is imperative that your voices are heard. Because at the moment, it is the same few of us who speak out over and over again. And we are berated for it. Or ignored. Or attempts are made to discredit us in some way, or to change our minds. so please - if you are unhappy - let our leadership know. It is a form of action. And it is important to take this action now, for the health of our future.

Thanks. Stephanie

Josh -

Yeah, but with even the smallest publicity (whatever the publicity) comes some sort of power. However unfortunate that fact is, there it lay.

Everyone-

I think Craig is using this post as some sort of microcosm for the larger problem of these two guys who seem to not ever think about the bigger picture.

It’s like they can’t ever see beyond the first move…

And while this comment might be pointing out the obvious for some of you, I just think it’s worth mentioning — lest we get in some sort of ‘Writer as Celebrity’ argument that doesn’t serve as an attempt to solve any of the current administration problems.

But whatever.

It’ll get derailed anyway. And maybe that’s the real…nah, screw it.

(grabs popcorn, sits. Waits.)

Gary

“Yeah, but with even the smallest publicity (whatever the publicity) comes some sort of power. However unfortunate that fact is, there it lay.”

Um…. Yeah. I know. I never said otherwise. My point was that I see PR as our own individual responsibilities. I don’t want my guild trying to make me famous. I want to make sure they’ve got my ass covered when I go to the emergency room, or when my director wants to take a co-writing credit just for changing a character’s name…

“My point was that I see PR as our own individual responsibilities.”

Key disconnect, Josh.

When you look at industries that have many suppliers (e.g. dairy) , you’ll find they band together to drive aggregate demand (e.g. “drink milk,” etc.). Thus, the issue is understanding how to impact demand, while also controling supply (Ted’s ‘embargo’ idea, WGA striking, & other tactics). The roll up nothing more complicated than shifting writer demand and writer supply in favorable directions, so WGA negotiation power is increased.

I can imagine the idea of comparing a writer to a quart of milk might be even more vile than the earlier discussion on considering “reality” writers WGA worthy, but when you consider the role unions play upon the economic factors which impact the livelihood of the membership as a whole, it is the most effective way to create a positive change for all.

lt

Josh (hello by the way. good to ‘hear your voice,’ again!) - I think there’s validity to both aspects of p.r. for us. Precisely because of the fact that we are invisible.

what the guild does collectively for writers, can only help us in the deals we make as writers. Don’t forget, there’s a whole world of writers out there who aren’t A list in either film or television. There’s a huge separation between the classes, here. And the more we as a whole, come into the fore, the better it is for all of us. Including the times when our mba contract is up for renegotiation. Perception is half the battle. And right now, ours stinks. It’s all related. I don’t think you can separate the collective from the individual when it comes to elevating our stature wherever possible. Steph

Josh:

I think you make a good point about not relying on the Guild to make you famous but I think the real point of the promotion was to increase the awareness of screenwriters.

Just imagine a nuclear family in Ohio and the mother says the word “Screenwriter”. It’d probably be the first time EVER outside of 90210. So while I agree with you that it’s not realistic to rely on a union to make an individual famous, I do think that it behooves the Guild to let the world know that movies aren’t improvised by the director and star.

movies aren’t improvised by the director and star

You have just shattered my worldview.

Summery = Good idea got smashed by Verrone/Young.

Smashing of idea = indicative of a disturbing pattern of bad moves.

Disturbing pattern = impending disaster that’s hard to believe.

Hard to believe = you believe it, but you don’t want to. Cuz it sucks. Like giant astroids heading towards Earth…specifcally California. Precisely, 3rd and Fairfax.

INCREASING PUBLIC AWARENESS OF NAMES UNDER THE WRITTEN BY.

I dunno, the HP deal doesn’t strike me as the way to go. It’s “something”, but I’ve never agreed with the idea that “doing something is better than doing nothing”, it’s not. Too often, doing “something” winds up as little more than a way of convincing yourself that progress is being made when it’s not.

The problem I have with the HP idea is that it’s WAY too narrowly targeted. So what? So a few aspiring writers are going to get an HP laptop. Big deal. NOBODY’S GOING TO EVEN KNOW IT HAPPENED, let alone care. Are there going to be any reporters from Time, Newsweek, or any major news outlets of any kind there? Is it going to create a buzz on the net? Hell no. And why not? ‘CAUSE NOBODY CARES! THAT’S NOT ENTERTAINMENT.

So, easy to knock one idea, what do I have to offer as an improvement?

O.k. how ‘bout this…

First, MLB’s got a point. Unions don’t make “Rockstars”, “Rockstars” make themselves, for the most part, but that doesn’t mean the Union can’t play it’s part. One thing the WGA could do it this…

CREATE AN ALGONQUIN ROUND TABLE.

O.k., most in here are writers, real writers, working writers who know what other working writers are like, as opposed to what writers are “supposed” to be like. So being real live honest to God working writers, who know what writers really talk about when they get together, what do you really think the likes of Dorothy Parker, Harold Ross, and Robert Benchley, were gabbin’ about at that hotel? Writing? PUGH-LEEZE!

The quality of that day’s soup, the rediculous nature of Noel Coward’s shoes, and the fact that he could get away with wearing them, were probably more common topics than any “writerly issues of the day”.

Point being, WHAT WAS DISCUSSED DIDN’T MATTER AS MUCH AS WHO WAS AT THE TABLE, AND THE FACT THAT LAZY REPORTERS COULD ALWAYS RELY ON IT FOR A GOOD QUOTE.

What the Guild could do is to twist a few arms, -gently- , to put a few “flavor of the month” asses in seats, in a highly visible area, for the purpose of providing media people with a really nice, elegant, free lunch with drinks, and a quote, opinion, or anecdote they can use.

Come on. You’re writers. Professional writers. So are those reporters. You know what they need. Do any of you honestly believe those reporters WANT to be covering “a pilled-up Nicole Richie driving the wrong way on the 134”? So give ‘em something better to work with.

There is no pool of talent on this entire fricking planet that knows more about how to capture, and then hold, an audience’s attention, than the membership of the WGA. “The writer’s table” is already widely reputed to be “where the best jokes get told”, where “the fun is” if not the power, so true or not, why not play up to it?

CREATE a “Round Table” by talking a few flavor of the month names into “doing lunch” together once a week, every week, on the slowest newsday of the week.

Don’t buy it? Don’t think that’ll work? Fine!

Call in a few guild experts for some better and more practical ideas.

People like Ron Moore, David Eick, Joss Whedon, and Michael Straczynski, still walk around with guild cards in their wallets don’t they? They may have moved up the food chain a bit over the years, but everyone of them think of themselves first and foremost AS WRITERS, and everyone of them sure as HELL have raised their own profiles to border on “Stardom” among Sci-Fi fans. If it can be done with Sci-Fi what makes anyone think it can’t be done with other genres?

“Nobody cares about screenwriters. They’re not interesting. They’re not Star material.”

Oh really?

Ron Moore did not a dammed thing more than walk into one of his staff’s writer’s meetings, and leave a pocket sized tape deck running on the table. Later they turned it, unedited, into an mpg and posted it on the show’s website. It garnered more downloads than any of their comparitively WILDLY expensive “Webisodes”, and more downloads than many of the cast interviews. Why? Because to most people, outside of Hollywood, screenwriting of any kind is a mysterious, little seen occupation that sounds like it’d be really REALLY cool to do.

It’s ironic that the ONLY people that don’t think screenwriting is a sexy, and very cool way to make a living, are the people working in Hollywood. Most “kids these days” would rather be a screenwriter than an astronaut. Astronauts don’t get to drive around L.A. in a hot sportcar and hang out with sexy and famous Stars (neither do screenwriters, but few people know that, or even want to believe it).

Personally it’s my belief that creating a few screenwriter rockstars wouldn’t be a bad idea at all. It’d go a long way toward making the case that the writing matters, every bit as much as the performances matter, and that the writer matters, every bit as much as the A-list Star or director matters.

But playing around with silly little contests where an aspiring writer gets a new laptop ain’t gonna do JACK SH!T. It’s too small scale. Nobody’s going to notice, and nobody’s going to care.

Now if anybody can wrangle up a contest where the winning scribe gets a small pad in Malibu, a brand new Telsa Roadster, and the chance to pitch a few story ideas to Trish Helfer over lunch at Morton’s, all on live TV, NOW you’re talkin’. Something like THAT would get people’s attention. But a laptop? A crappy little laptop?

Agruing over whether or not we should have a contest where somebody could win a new laptop, or deal with the product placement issue as a means of pressuring advertisers to pressure networks, isn’t going to get any of us anywhere.

It’s like arguing over whether to piss in the sink, or piss in the bathtub, when the potty’s backed up. It doesn’t matter who wins the argument, or which decision is made, when all’s said an done… the potty’s still busted and nothing has changed.

There’s only one way to educate the general public about the importance of screenwriters in America’s favorite past time and that is reality tv. We need a network (!) show, starring a cast of writers (the a-list burn out, the aspiring drunk, the hot chick with no talent, etc.) who battle it out bonaduce style. Sort of an “america’s next top model meets project greenlight”.

OR, how about a sitcom about the trials and tribulations of a screenwriter in hollywood…

Why don’t you just quit?

Mike:

Actually, they were going to have a fairly large national presence on this, and it apparently included some kind of promotional event at the Cannes Film Festival.

Little things help start the process. This would have been a good start.

I have an extremely realistic view of the WGA. I don’t expect them to find me work or negotiate deals either. Hell, I don’t even expect them to pay my health insurance (which is based on employer contributions based on work I perform, not the dues I pay, if I understand correctly).

But I DO expect this: Don’t waste my dues. Organzing…well, I disagreed with the notion but gave it a chance. It failed. Are we still spending money on this? Ditto the whole product placement jerk-off which only make us writers look like the greedy whores they think we are.

And I doubt anyone here thinks the HP campaign was designed to try to make any one of us here in the WGA “famous.”

Of course, every writer here should certainly deal with their own “red carpets” and their own “publicity.” But here on AW, I think we’re talking about how best to spend our dues to make our workplace a little more civilized for all screenwriters in general.

Duh that screenwriters will never make the front page of DEFAMER as often as Nicole Richie or Britney Spears. But should we give up trying to improve the status, creative rights, and workplace treatment of screenwriters because most of us wear underwear?

Craig,

When I read your piece and got to this (below) ,I was cracking up. Your angst, disgust, synocism was/is palpable. What sent me over the happy edge was all, yup ALL my students came in here roaring, they got it too! They are students of a local university and they are studying theater and the technics of screenwriting, as well as they are speaking and writing English as their second language.

You are crisp and concise as well as pissed off and f*%#ing hysterical. BRILLIANTLY superb example for my TESOL writers. (I gotta add here they/I/we are glued to Bill Martel, Johnny Hartmann and Josh Olson as well!)

“They kill it. And why? Oh, brothers and sisters, you’re going to want to be sitting down for this one.”

“Let me say that again, because sometimes when I repeat something monumentally stupid, I’m not sure it’s real, so bear with me.”

Josh,

“Writing’s the toughest gig there is in this business. Everyone else gets to start with something in hand, but writers start with an empty page. That’s the fundamental difference between us and everyone else in Hollywood.”

“We’ve had a few of those become rock stars, but the problem is, they ALSO usually become directors or actors…”

This is excellent! I come from a family of portfolio assessment moguls & lawyers. The mere thought of me proposing that I was going into education had everyones huddled making meetings with me so to convince me to readjust my thinking! :)

I know here on this site it has come up that it is in ones best interest to master other things in your business, however your conviction stands so strong when you do what you love and you master that. I’m unable to count the times I think of you upon recalling your movie(s) or even seeing them for sale in Barnes & Nobles or whereever.

I appreciate your stance/conviction on doing what you do, and doing it well.

xoxoLL

Craig;

“Actually, they were going to have a fairly large national presence on this, and it apparently included some kind of promotional event at the Cannes Film Festival.

Little things help start the process. This would have been a good start.”

That’s good, but still, it seems to me that ideas like this one are too small. What’s needed are a few ideas that could ;-) “go wide”, ideas that aren’t limited to raising the profile of writers among simply “film people”. It’s the wider movie going public, and viewers, that need to be hit.

But leaving that particular issue behind for a moment, the real issue here seems to be either a leadership problem (“not designed here” = “not gonna happen”), a problem for leadership (they’re not getting their POV across to you well enough to convince, and you’re not alone), or an intramural problem (the “group mind” can’t come to a decision because everyone in the group has their doubts about the commitment or wisdom of other factions within the group).

Are you certain that all attempts at a compromise solution that both V&Y and the P&MC could get behind have been exhausted?

For what it’s worth there’s a ;-) “magic” phrase my father taught me that often works in situations like this, it goes - “O.k., I can understand that, but let me ask you this…”

For example: ‘K, so HP’s on our S-list. I can understand that, but let me ask you this - what if we take it to - say - Apple? If Apple says yes, is this a go at that point? Or is Apple on our S-list too? In fact where’s this S-list? Who’s on it? Yeah, I know we don’t have an “official” list, but if we’re going to stand shoulder to shoulder on this we need an unofficial list, just for this afternoon, to keep us on the same page. So, is Apple on the list? No? Fine. How ‘bout Dell? IBM? Gateway? K. Gotcha. Anybody else? O.k., so these outfits are the no go’s, these are the good to go’s, and if we get one of the good to go’s to sign onto this deal you’re behind us? It’s a go? …

Frustrating? Yes. A pain in the ass? Yes. Time consuming? Yes. But that’s the nature of any group effort.

Is this a case of everyone involved just getting frustrated with the inevitable, mind numbing, torturous process, of achieving anything at all that bears even the slightest resemblance to a consensus between reasoned minds?

Or, in your opinion, have those efforts already been made and failed?

That’s good, but still, it seems to me that ideas like this one are too small. What’s needed are a few ideas that could ;-) “go wide”, ideas that aren’t limited to raising the profile of writers among simply “film people”. It’s the wider movie going public, and viewers, that need to be hit.

The way I read it is that the target audience was “people shopping for HP computers,” not just “film people.”

Excellent point Aaron. That never actually occured to me. Seriously.

“That’s good, but still, it seems to me that ideas like this one are too small. What’s needed are a few ideas that could ;-) “go wide”, ideas that aren’t limited to raising the profile of writers among simply “film people”. It’s the wider movie going public, and viewers, that need to be hit.”

I agree with Mike. The more I think about a sitcom with a screenwriter as the central character could do the job. If succesful, it could raise awareness of what we do and how hard it is. Known writers and film folk could do cameos. Think “Entourage meets Sex In The City”.

C’mon… the one thing we have on our side is the power of writing! Let’s get 2-3 brilliant comedy writers together, develop a pitch, and hit the networks. (I’ll take “Created By”).

The more I think about a sitcom with a screenwriter as the central character could do the job. If succesful, it could raise awareness of what we do and how hard it is.”

Movies and television shows about the business almost always fail. Sure, there are exceptions but for the most part…death.

I struggle with trying to watch Studio 60 every week.

And although I think you’re half joking, making a television sitcom for the reason of trying to raise awareness around screenwriters is like Craig Mazin trying to get into an Olympic 400 meter race to prove that Jews are fast.

Marianne Wibberley,

You may not have many expectations, but the ones you have are unrealistic. The guild will spend your money any damn way it pleases.

And BTW, Hi!

Hi, M.Wibb!

And although I think you’re half joking, making a television sitcom for the reason of trying to raise awareness around screenwriters is like Craig Mazin trying to get into an Olympic 400 meter race to prove that Jews are fast.

Ain’t that the truth. We don’t start to really shine until we get to the 1k hurdles.

anyone remember the screenwriter character in the Fox sitcom ACTION? I think he really enobled our profession.

Sitcom? Good idea. And, hell, if it fails, we’ll always have Barton Fink…

MLB,

You’re so right.

Dammit.

Hi.

To Laura,

“…they are studying theater and the technics of screenwriting, as well as they are speaking and writing English as their second language.”

 I'm a lurker, first time poster.  I've read n re-read you when you spiratically post..enjoy your energy.
 Why would these people come here and want to write when they can stay where they are and write fot their own people n country?
 They have to climb an enormous hill already?  And why would you want to help them, it's an enormous hill x2?

I’m sorry Craig, but it does seem to be against principle to run such a promotion.

There are the things the Guild stands for, and there are the things that can profitably be fought for. While ‘no product integration’ and ‘reality t.v. inclusion’ don’t seem to have gained enough momentum as rallying cries, that doesn’t mean they should be abandoned as principles.

I don’t want to be forced to shoehorn in an advertisement for a product into a script. But I think the larger framing is one of creative control. I don’t want to be forced to shoehorn in anything that is detrimental.

Television and especially film writers ain’t got that power — not the way playwrights have got it. Is the Guild’s ultimate goal to secure total creative control, or simply to prevent the exploitation of hired hands?

This decision to kill the HP promotion is freighted with subtext. It goes, in fact, right to the core of the WGA’s philosophy. Perhaps the WGA should not be divided between East and West, but between those who want a Guild that provides creative leverage and those who want a Guild that provides financial protection.

J. Ott:

While ‘no product integration’ and ‘reality t.v. inclusion’ don’t seem to have gained enough momentum as rallying cries, that doesn’t mean they should be abandoned as principles.

Yes, yes it does. That’s exactly what it means. These things were not ends to themselves. They were means. They aren’t working. Time to abandon, particularly when cleaving to them opens us all up to charges of hypocrisy.

Or do primetime shows no longer exist merely to sell advertising?

The Guild is capable of both protecting our economic interests and advancing the greater good of the writer. We don’t need to pick one or the other.

We just have to stop doing things stupidly.

Dick Van Dyke show was a successful sitcom about a writer in television, was it not?

There is a bias against shows about entertainment people but I often feel that bias is rooted in the entertainment shows rather than the civilians that watch them.

I love ENTOURAGE but I remember telling my friends about it during its first season and most of them scoffed, saying “shows about the business never work”.

Well written, produced and cast shows will always work, no matter what the subject matter.

Seinfield was about a standup comedian.

Curb Your Enthusiam.

Garry Shandling’s show about a talk show host. Just brilliant.

I happen to like STUDIO 60, I like it more than I thought I would. It’s smart and witty. More than 30 Rock. 60 is better than its rep. People want to hate it, especially people in the biz, I know not why. But it’s loads better than, say … FLAVA OF LOVE.

“Well written, produced and cast shows will always work, no matter what the subject matter.”

Exactly, precisely, you are correct, sir.

Personally, I don’t see a whole lot of difference between being forced to cram in a product placement bit and being forced to cram in whatever other thing some producer wants.

And, for what it’s worth, sometimes the product placement is funny or otherwise further illuminates the character. For example, watching Kevin on “The Office” go on about his shredder seemed completely within character and fit within the show to me.

And, of course, the “Wayne’s World” product placement bit is a classic bit o’ comedy, in my opinion.

Well written, produced and cast shows will always work, no matter what the subject matter.”

If this were true television would be a great place.

But alas, that statement couldn’t be more false.

Well-written, produced, and cast shows will usually “work” as entertainment, but that doesn’t mean they’ll succeed in the marketplace.

Hmm. Well, one thing is sure - I’m glad I don’t have to deal with any of this Guild stuff yet.

Being English and in England, will this even affect me if I write in good old Hollywood one day, as I hope to? One thing I’ve never been good at is parting with money I’ve earned to people I don’t believe have earned it themselves. My eventual agent and manager? Hopefully they’ll earn it. Will I ever be, as Craig puts it “tithing 1.5% of my gross earnings to an organization that has lost its mind”? Over my lifeless corpse.

Oh yeah and,

“Well written, produced and cast shows will always work, no matter what the subject matter.”

Tell that to Joss Whedon and the rest of the Firefly crew.

Firefly worked as entertainment, which is why it developed a huge fan following…

Anyway, tedious topic. I says the sitcom idea is worth a shot. How many great comedy writers are in the wga?! Round’m up!

You know, I hate to say it, but unless the WGA wants to explain to TV networks how to otherwise compensate for the rapidly flattening (and maybe even declining) TV advertising market, not to mention the related diminishment in syndication value of even popular shows, I’m not sure it should be taking a stand against product integration. The economics of prime time TV- particularly scripted prime time TV- are getting pretty brutal, and I for one would like there to continue to be a robust scripted TV industry so I can keep working and not have to end up going to law school or something.

Obviously, some product integration schemes are going to be artistically lame. But a lot of network notes on shows in general are artistically lame, and I don’t see why it’s the WGA’s responsibility, rather than the show-runner’s, to deal with the complicated politics of addressing them vs. not addressing them.

(Side note: the final scene of the last episode of Six Feet Under— which everyone loved and which got mentioned by numerous TV critics as one of the best moments ever in television— was an arranged product placement for the Toyota Prius.)

(Another side note: If you think that networks can compensate for declining prime time ad revenues via ads on internet streaming of shows, etc., take a look at the numbers. It just doesn’t add up— yet— and might not for a decade or two.)

“But alas, that statement couldn’t be more false.”

Depends on how one defines WORK, doesn’t it Kevin?

These days with rentals and downloads, even shows that don’t score on their original broadcast will oftentimes find an audience later on …

So I stand by my statement … well-written, well cast and well-produced shows will always work, no matter the subject matter.

Some may take a little longer to find their audience, but they will at some point.

Joshua James:

Maybe, but in that case, your definition of ‘work’ doesn’t mean ‘recouping’ let alone ‘making a profit margin.’ Fox, for instance, still lost money on Firefly despite the DVD sales, etc. The economics are that tough.

Joshua James,

You must realize your statement: “well-written, well cast and well-produced shows will always work, no matter the subject matter” can never be substantiated and therefore is meaningless. You might as well say “Movies with great screenplays and brilliant actors are always successful.”

Craig…or anyone else wih info, Is there any way we can pull a bye-bye Gray Davis on these clowns and get them recalled from office? There has to be something in our bi-laws to deal with mismanagement and incompetence of elected officials. Anyone?

Joshua,

Yeah, we’ve been agreeing a lot this week so Thank God you came and said something nutty so I can harp on you!:)

By the way, if you’re still at the place where I met you last time, I’ll see you this Tuesday…

Dear another craig…

yes - we have procedures already in place for removing the board and officers. need to get a petition and a certain amt of sigs for the officers and a certain amt for the board, and once that’s done, a special election meeting is called.

Malcolm - come home!

Hi Ms Wibb.

Hi.

Dammit.

Hi.

da Stephler

P.S. This is in response to J. Ott -

There were no underlying priniciples involved with the product placement campaign. It was manufactured f rom the start. There were fast and easy ways to have handled it - ways which would have allowed us to maintain our dignity. But we took the low road. This was never about principles. It was about money. And so - if we were really serious about all this, and had a brain in our heads, we would have gone forward with the HP deal. Why?

Because that would have given us an automatic ‘in,’ with some key players in the product placement wars. And the closer we got to them, the more we would have been able to talk to them, and to educate them. It’s about making the most out of every situation. Which we, as a guild, certainly have not.

The more contact HP and the pr firm had with professional, working, writers - the more of an opportunity for them to understand our position on this. If it had been about the principle and about considering the product placement as a reverse form of censorship. But that was never the issue. And because that was never the issue -

there was never principle involved. No matter how many of us over a period of time, kept trying to tell them all - just make it the principle and we all be lining up to get on board. But this was a nonguild issue from the start. So angry… S.

Other Craig:

Here’s the relevant section from our constitution.

Section 2. Procedures for Recall of an Officer Upon a written petition for recall signed by at least three hundred (300) Current members in good standing being filed with the Board, a special meeting of the membership shall be called. A majority of the Current members in good standing of the Guild voting, whether by mail or in person, by secret ballot at such special meeting, shall be sufficient to recall an officer of the Guild, provided that a quorum was established during the meeting. Mail ballots shall be counted toward a quorum.

Section 3. Procedures for Recall of a Board Member Upon a written petition for recall signed by at least two hundred (200) Current members in good standing being filed with the Board, a special meeting of the membership shall be called. A majority of the Current members in good standing voting, whether by mail or in person, by secret ballot at such meeting, shall be sufficient to recall a member of the Board of Directors, provided that a quorum was established during the meeting. Mail ballots shall be counted toward a quorum.

“You must realize your statement: “well-written, well cast and well-produced shows will always work, no matter the subject matter” can never be substantiated and therefore is meaningless.”

I don’t see why that cannot be substantiated. You’d have to prove that there was, indeed, a link to subject matter with regard to success or failure. All I’m saying is that telling a great story is what matters, and that you can tell a great story about any subject as long as the story is compelling. We like to believe there are taboo subjects, but that line keeps being blurred, doesn’t it? So it seems that there is no subject matter that cannot be turned into a great movie as long as the execution of the story is excellent. That was my point. I was responding ot the person who said shows about the business never succeed. I don’t believe it’s necessarily subject matter but other things, one of which is execution (great writing, directing, acting), marketing, timing, etc.

So perhaps by saying they will ALWAYS work if well written and produced was a bit too much of an exaggertion… though as a piece of craft alone, it if works as a story, it works, whether one person sees it or millions. But if no one sees it, I grant your point that it is not successful.

But I think any subject can be a compelling story for a show, no matter how risque’, if it’s done well.

Midnight Cowboy was rated X when it won best picture, right?

Who’d a thunk a film about migrating penguins would be so well recieved?

You might as well say “Movies with great screenplays and brilliant actors are always successful.”

Okay. We can’t say that? So what’s the alternative? Movies with great screenplays and brilliant actors are never successful, partially successful or mostly successful?

Or are you saying that great screenplays and brilliant actors have nothing to do with the success? If great screenplays and brilliant actors have little to nothing to do with the success of a show, what does?

Ooo. Oops.

My apologies for the numerous spelling errors in my previous post. All I can say is that it’s late and I’ve imbibed.

I full expect a righteous spanking for said misconduct of drinking and posting.

I will retire to the penalty box for petty crimes against Strunk and White.

One of the first problems with substantiating such a statement would be agreeing on what constitutes a “great screenplay”. Honestly, I don’t think you ever get past that point. But if you do, then you have to agree on who is a brilliant actor and then add in a definition of success.

They hand out Oscars for great screenplays every year. And Golden Globes, among other things.

Book are written about them. Seminars taught about them. Notes from the studio executives. Wait, scratch the last one.

But I think we could find a fair amount of agreement on some great screenplays if we tried hard enough.

If we cannot recognize greatness in screenplays realized by others, how are we ever to achieve a high level of success writing our own screenplays?

Oops. I’m supposed to be in the penalty box. That’s five more minutes, and I don’t even like hockey.

I’ll keep quiet now.

I don’t think there’s an objective standard to greatness or brilliance. Even limiting ourselves to the 10 screenplays nominated for Academy Awards every year often shows significant disagreement over their relative greatness.

If we include all potentially great screenplays, we’re likely not going to get a very large number if all or nearly all have to agree on their greatness.

But I guess if we want to use the Academy Award-nominated screenplays as our example of greatness, then we can throw out the idea that all great screenplays are successful since several Academy Award-nominated screenplays have not resulted in successful movies.

I’ll note one of my favorite movies that I believe to be among the greats. “Ghost World” is very well written and extremely well cast. The movie was nominated for Best Adapted Screenplay (it lost to Akiva Goldsman’s “A Beautiful Mind”). The movie made $8 million in worldwide box office with a production budget reportedly of $7 million (I assume that doesn’t include P&A).

At best, MGM might have broken even after ancillaries were counted up.

Of course, I assume some people would be willing to debate the greatness of that film. Nearly 10% of those who graded it at Box Office Mojo gave it an “F”.

obviously joshua’s statement has to be read in context:

johnny: a show about screenwriters could raise awareness about our craft.

kevin: shows about the bizz almost always fail.

joshua: if it’s well written/produced, it could succeed.

it should go without saying that I was talking about a succesful show, because, well, a show that gets cancelled will not raise awareness… duh. kevin’s post actually left room for the possibilty that said show bears the potential not to fail, rendering his - not joshua’s - statement “meaningless”.

so what is kevin really saying? that because shows about the bizz usually fail, we should not make the attempt?

people used to believe that pirate movies cannot be succesful…

…savvy?

Johnny:

I really gave you the benefit of the doubt and I truly thought you were joking. Surely you see the obvious problems of trying to raise awareness for screenwriters or television writers by creating a sitcom?

Forget the fact that the suggestion borders on something Gareth/Dwight would say but you’re assuming that a main character’s profession in a sitcom would somehow be relevant to an audience. As if:

The Dick Van Dyke Show raised awareness for Television Writers?

Everybody Loves Raymond raised awareness for Columnists?

Sex & The City raised awareness for Columnists?

Action raised awareness for Studio Heads?

Studio 60 raises awareness for Executive Producers?

30 Rock raises awareness for Staff Writers?

Mad About You raised awareness for…wait, what the hell did Paul Reiser do on that show?

Look, we all agree that the profile for Writers need to be raised in order for better negotiations and working conditions but attempting to create a sitcom for that reason is as retarded as blowing on a hot cup of coffee in order to freeze it or throwing ice at the sun in order to put it out.

Feel free to pick which joke you prefer…

people used to believe that pirate movies cannot be succesful…”

Yeah…that’s the same.

Pirates. Screenwriters.

No…difference…at…all.

see, kevin, the difference is that this show would be developed with the intent to raise awareness… and let’s face it, ‘sex and the city’ taught us guys a thing or two about the female orgasm (i wasn’t even aware of such a thing).

Kevin,

I’ve read interviews of various television writers of the seventies and eighties who go on record as saying that The Dick Van Dyke Show was a direct inspiration to them.

So there tis.

I’m not saying a show about screenwriters would raise awareness. I don’t know for certain about that. I was merely responding that I do not agree that any show about “the biz” is destined for failure simply because it was about the biz. I listed some examples (The Dick Van Dyke Show on up to Entourage) as examples of shows about the biz that have succeeded and thrived.

Paul Reiser was a documentary filmmaker on Mad About You. And look, documentaries are more popular than ever now.

I’m pretty sure we can thank Mad About You for that.

“Pirates. Screenwriters.

No…difference…at…all.”

sir, my point was that people used to say the pirate movie genre is dead due to the fact that many a folk tried to make a succesful pirates movie and failed.

Pirate movies are doomed. Shows about the bizz almost always fail.

No difference…at…all!

Derek Haas,

You need to lighten up. You don’t know what’s substiated or not. You need to lighten up or take it to the next level, because as far as I see, you need to lighten up.

Watch it.

I have an idea that I think would be great for the WGA.

I think they should hook up with Regal Entertainment and produce 10, 2 minute videos to run during a segment called “The 20” (a series of EPK’s that run before the feature presentation in a movie theatre).

The slogan of these spots would be called, “Movies…they don’t write themselves”. These spots would also run on the AMC channel (part of Regal Entertainment), before airings of classic films like Mildred Pierce and All About Eve.

Anyway, that’s what I would do.

Oh, I forgot to mention:

In the spots, the writer of these famous movies would talk about the most memorable scenes in they wrote in the film.

Not only would the spots garner some attention for writers but studios would get a chance to promote some older titles in their library.

Mr. Bramble,

There are important issues being discussed here. Please quit being racist. Thank you.

Hey Anon,

“To Laura…I’m a lurker, first time poster…”

She ain’t never gonna answer you - you gotta sign your name.

R

American Movies Classics is not part of Regal Entertainment.

AMC channel is part of Cablevision. Regal is owned by Philip Anschutz.

kevin—

That’s really the best idea we’ve had on here for awhile.

And it’s a little more realistic possibility than mounting a pilot on screenwriters (which would take a year or more) and then producing it (which would take another few months to a year) and then hoping it gets on the air (which would take another year to never.)

Nice one.

I don’t own a TV but if a show ever came on the air about pirate screenwriters, I’d run out and buy one.

I don?t own a TV but if a show ever came on the air about pirate screenwriters, I?d run out and buy one.

Heck, I’d run out and be one. (A pirate screenwriter, not a TV. But I’m not ruling out the possibility of ever being a TV. A television, that is. I like men’s clothes.)