We're Getting Too Old For This Shit

Though wise men at their end know dark is right, Because their words had forked no lightning they Do not go gentle into that good night.

Craig:

I think there’s another factor behind the unemployment of writers of a certain age group.

The Ability To Stay Relevant.

This is a sweeping generalization but for the most part, if I talk to a man or woman in their 60’s, they’re not gonna get or understand any pop culture reference that I make.

Whether we like it or not, most of the movies that are produced today are geared towards teenagers and kids, not adults. And while someone in their 50’s is capable of writing a great movie like The Incredible, I think it’s safe to say that they couldn’t write the Mean Girls and the Bring It On’s that are so popular today.

So maybe then this whole thing can be boiled down to content. If I’m an employer and I want Armaggedon but continue to recieve The Bridges of Madison County, I certainly don’t want to be forced into the latter.

Hmmm, I do believe I have seen seniors working the concession stands in theatres and the counter at Micky D’s, but I believe the fact that there are only really young people or really old people at those posts is largely a matter of the shitty pay, and no other reason. Teenagers live at home and just need an hourly job, even for minimum wage, and seniors either a)don’t need the money and only want something to do or b)can’t get any other job.

Being in New York (at least for the time being) I will let others argue the specifics of that lawsuit. I do wonder about a couple of things, though …

A) Do you believe ageism exists at all? Not just in Hollywood, but in other industries … .

B) Does discrimination exist in Hollywood? Certainly it did seem like it did at one point in time … it seemed that most television writers (and film) were white men, at one point, according to the books I’ve read, and while it certainly seems to have changed for the better now, can we safely say that discrimination does not exist?

That people aren’t given jobs for reasons other than merit?

If we can’t say that, it seems hard to argue that there isn’t at least SOMETHING behind this. Even a tiny bit.

One last interesting, if somewhat digressing note. I have a doctor friend in Chicago who also writes. He and another doctor collaborated on a project that was picked up by a major studio (it was, of course, a medical show) a few years back … the studio flew them out and put them up, the whole dog and pony show. My buddy went to meet the exec in charge and his job dropped. The guy, my friend told me, couldn’t be more than 22, 23 tops. I swear he wasn’t shaving yet, my friend said.

My friend, who is a very smart man, was astounded that such a big company would put so much responsibility to someone so young … he was nice enough, my doc buddy said, but he knew next to nothing about anything in the world, he was too young to understand what was behind hospital politics, world politics, literature, geography, anything other than being in Hollywood and it led to problems understanding the project (I cannot go into too much detail) and even communicating about it.

My doctor friend wasn’t old, he was the same age that you are now, Craig … Ultimately, my buddy made money but the project never happened, like so many others. Moral of the story? I dunno, but I suspect it would be … .

Relevancy is relative

As for myself, I’ve liked just about everyone I’ve met in Hollywood the few times I’ve been out there … but my Significant Other believes I’m an adolescent in arrested development, so that may have something to do with it ;)!

I worked in TV for a decade, and it’s a grind, like you describe. Worse than writing features, easily.

I walked away from a healthy TV career and transitioned into features in my 30s, because I wanted to spend time with my family. I’m not alone - many of my friends made the same move, or got out of entertainment entirely.

The frustrating thing is that now my friends and I are “proof” that ageism exists. Even though we voluntarily left, the fact that we worked in our 20s and 30s and will never go back to TV as we age into our 40s and 50s will be added into the lawsuit as statistical evidence of prejudice.

Dalton: Wade Garrett’s the best.

Tilghman: Wade Garrett’s gettin’ old.

Dalton: He’s still the best.

From that classic Swayze film ROADHOUSE. Some of you old fogies may not know it, being so cut off from pop culture everyone says ya are.

I appreciate your viewpoint and your passionate argument designed to get others to join your point of view. Yet, on this subject, your well-written dissertation falls short with me - not on deaf ears mind you. Your essay reminds me of the spin that comes out of this White House - very short on the facts (wink wink) and tall on ideology.

As a member of a visible minority slugging it out in this town for a number of years, I am intimately aware of the realities of this business. While “discrimination” might be on par with the N-Word - the D-Word if you will - these realities include non-consideration and non-selection for a variety of parameters including age.

Prejudice is pre-judgment - judgment after the fact is another matter altogether. I’m sure that you have been to many meetings and are keenly aware of how decisions are made and by whom in the world of writing. Such being the case, I believe that in your heart of hearts, despite your written argument, that you might be able to agree that these people have a case, as embarrassing a precedent that it may present.

William Monahan, writer of The Departed, is coming up on 50. Perhaps you will be up for your first Oscar by then.

I follow you for the most part, and I appreciate the overall tone of “let’s-look-in-the-mirror” accountability on the writers’ side. The only thing missing is applying the same accountability to the other side.

It’s not a secret that studios, agencies, etc. have stated outright for years, “If you’re over 40, we don’t want you.” They don’t even deny that they’ve said it; they insist they have a right to say it. And that, you have to admit, is random and ridiculous (and illegal) by any logical standard.

Writers make a living pretending to be other people. Someone was once quoted as saying, “I didn’t have to be a dog to write Lassie.” Is there something magical about 40, or 50, or 60 that makes writers incapable of understanding anything or anyone younger?

If writers should be called to the carpet for using ageism as a crutch or excuse, shouldn’t studios also be held accountable if they’ve operated by a policy of automatically excluding people based solely on age?

All they are asking is a fair shot at writing the same crappy, unoriginal sequels and remakes that are flooding the movie landscape.

Old folks smell funny! They should be banned from public streets as all they do is serve as walking, or rather creeping, reminders of our own mortality. Useless pack. What we need is the Carousel! Renew! Renew!! RENEWAL! REEENEEW!!!

I’ve worked in TV for over 20 years and after the last show got cancelled and the subsequent development deal ended, I felt the door shutting behind me. So I wrote a book (about the horrors of TV development—on spec—and got it published.) Then I made a movie with my own cash and we’re in 3 festivals and on the verge of some kind of distribution. I’m still knocking on the door of TV but I know 100 people around my age with similar credits all looking for the same 5 jobs. I have a couple friends doing a pilot. If it gets picked up, maybe they’ll hire me. As I would hire them. I’m still writing everything I can think of. I’ve heard older writers complain about ageism. And it probably exists to some degree. The problem is, however, they weren’t writing anything new to change the way they were perceived. Either it’s in your blood to write or it’s not. As for the system, yeah, older writers will occasionally have a tough time getting hired on staff, though on my last show the ages of the staff ranged from people in their 20’s to people in their 60’s. Men and women. Gay and straight. Single and married. And neither the studio nor the network had any say in who we hired. So get out your detector and play “find the discrimination.” The business is always tough. Tough to get in. Tough to stay in. If you’re out, write yourself back in. If you can’t then downsize, move away and plant a garden. As the man said: this is not a lawsuit. This is life. I’m 54 and I don’t give a fuck if some development twit in diapers thinks I’m too old.

Craig,

I agree with many (most?) of your points. I think a class action lawsuit will solve nothing, and will only prove a tedious distraction to much more important issues for writers. But I think you’re short-selling one reality of the industry, and I have just the anecdote to explain it.

A few years ago, I am having lunch with a producer. I’d written a script for her that never got made, but we remained friendly. I ask her what she’s working on, and she tells me about a book her company just bought. I tell her it sounds really interesting, which is only a half-lie.

And without any hesitation, she says, “We’re looking for a younger writer.”

I was thirty.

Now, I don’t think she was strictly talking about age. By “younger,” she meant less expensive. Less established. But on some level, she also meant younger. Newer. Fresher.

Hiring a writer at the early stages of his career is a gamble, but if the script turns out well, you look like a genius. You spotted talent at its nascent stage. Anyone can hire Scott Frank for $2 million. But getting Zach Helm for scale when no one’s heard of him? That’s exciting.

Or maybe Hollywood should look at the success of something like Pixar, which has won numerous Oscars and made billions at the box office. Shockingly, some are married with children and closing in on their 50’s!

How is that possible?! How can they write for both the young and old?! Do they even know how to operate a computer? It’s gotta be the 3D!

Can’t possibly have to do with talent. They’re too old for that.

A 50-year-old writer can certainly “understand” the problems and motivations of a 20-year-old character. We were all that age once. But as Kevin mentioned, unless you’ve stayed unnaturally plugged into youth culture during the intervening years, you’re likely to get tripped up by a lot of little details. Getting the slang wrong. Showing characters listening to music they’d never actually listen to. That kind of thing.

Not to say that it can’t be done, but getting it right will be as much a research project as, say, writing a story set in ancient Greece, with the added inconvenience that there aren’t nearly as many ancient Greeks hanging around waiting to cry bullshit the moment you get it wrong.

I’m not arguing that a 42-and-a-half-year-old-writer can only write stories for other 42-and-a-half-year-olds…but I am saying there’s an age range of people who are most likely to relate to your work. Let’s say it’s starts with people 15 years younger and ends with people 15 years older. (Just for the sake of argument—I’m pulling these numbers out of my ass, so feel free to pull different ones out of yours.)

But if we entertain my numbers for arguments’ sake, then at age 50, you’re pretty much finished writing for ad-supported television, because advertisers are most interested in reaching 18-to-34-year-olds, and the youngest people who like your stuff are now 35. Likewise if you tend to write in some primarily youth-oriented movie genre—the people spending most of the money on those kinds of movies are no longer members of “your” audience.

And at the same time, the people who are in your audience are becoming more selective about their entertainment. All the things Craig noted about having kids, needing to make mortgage payments, and so forth apply just as much to audiences as they do to writers. Simply put, older people spend less time watching crap, or even okay-but-not-great stuff. They just don’t have the free time for it anymore. When they do consume movies, for instance, they tend to gravitate toward things they’re already pretty sure they’ll like—movies that have won awards, movies that have gotten glowing reviews, movies made by big-name directors or actors whose taste they trust based on past experience, movies that have attracted (mostly younger) viewers for so many weeks and hung around in theaters for so long that they finally give in and say “What the hell, I’ll check this out too.”

In short, the quality bar that you have to clear to keep on attracting “your” audience gets much higher as they age. I don’t agree at all with Craig that the average person’s writing talents are already on the wane by age 40 or 50—if anything, I’d say they reach their peak during those years—but nonetheless, the skills that earned you a respectable living as a 20- or 30-something genre functionary may simply no longer be good enough to earn you any kind of living writing for your much more fickle 40- and 50-something contemporaries. Unless you’ve won an Oscar or had your script shot by Spielberg or written Titanic or Lord of the Rings, they just don’t have time for you anymore. It’s not age-ism, it’s taste-ism.

In the meantime, who’d like to join me in bringing suit against the porn industry? The age range of the actors and actresses they’re hiring is clearly not reflective of the age range of the adult population in general. Discrimination!

I’m 58 so I guess I have a dog in the fight.

If your (US) employer is mean to you for a reason that’s protected by law (religion, age, sex), then it’s illegal discrimination. But that has nothing to do with the industry rejecting spec scripts from us old farts.

I guess TV writers are employees. SAG actors and crew are usually employees. But I don’t think film writers are. Neither are producers. Not sure about directors, but I don’t think so.

If you aren’t an employee, you aren’t entitled to the proteciton that an employee has.

Rob wrote:

I believe that in your heart of hearts, despite your written argument, that you might be able to agree that these people have a case, as embarrassing a precedent that it may present. William Monahan, writer of The Departed, is coming up on 50. Perhaps you will be up for your first Oscar by then.

No, I gave you my heart of hearts in this one, and while I don’t think I’ll ever win an Oscar or even be up for one, I find it curious that you use the example of a man in a protected class winning an Oscar as support for your argument that writers in protected classes are being discriminated against.

Conk wrote:

It’s not a secret that studios, agencies, etc. have stated outright for years, “If you’re over 40, we don’t want you.”

Well, no one tell Warner Brothers, who just made a deal with writers who are almost entirely over the age of 40. No one tell David Koepp or Ted Elliott or Terry Rossio or Steve Zaillian or Scott Frank or The Wibberleys or Scott Rosenberg or just about every successful screenwriter I know.

I’m under 40, and no one’s ever said to me “Thank God you’re still under the hiring line.” It’s not a secret. It’s not true. At least, not in my line of work.

Ian:

Well said, and a great report from the frontline.

John wrote:

Anyone can hire Scott Frank for $2 million. But getting Zach Helm for scale when no one’s heard of him? That’s exciting.

Very true. And buried in my list of adjectives up there was a poorly-wrought phrase “willing to work for reasonable pay.” I should have written “willing to work for little pay.” It’s reasonable that you get paid what you get paid. It’s your market value, and people want to pay it, ergo…it’s reasonable.

Older writers who are having trouble making their quote often don’t get that the market is trying to correct their price downward to reflect demand. Maybe there were some bombs released. Maybe the writer crapped out on the last three projects. Or maybe the town is going through one of those “we need to spend less on R&D” phases. For whatever reason (except malicious ageism), the older writer’s quote is too high for the market…and in the absence of some personal economic reevaluation, recriminations about ageism can be seductive.

As the old joke about Hollywood careers goes:

“Who’s John August?” “Get me John August!” “Get me a young John August!” “Who’s John August?”

You’re right to think “get me a young…” really means “Get me someone good and cheap.”

Denmaley wrote:

I guess TV writers are employees. SAG actors and crew are usually employees. But I don’t think film writers are. Neither are producers. Not sure about directors, but I don’t think so.

Film writers, and directors are employees. Some producers are, some aren’t.

“A 50-year-old writer can certainly “understand” the problems and motivations of a 20-year-old character. We were all that age once. But as Kevin mentioned, unless you’ve stayed unnaturally plugged into youth culture during the intervening years, you’re likely to get tripped up by a lot of little details. Getting the slang wrong. Showing characters listening to music they’d never actually listen to. That kind of thing.”

Though I’m only 35 rather than 50, I would say I’m more aware of youth culture now than I was when I was actually a part of the youth culture. A big part of this is having to make the effort to keep up with my teenaged kids.

Now, when I’m 50, my sons will be 33 and 28, so I won’t be able to count on them to help keep me relevant, which is the entire reaon I impregnated my wife late last year - to start the process anew.

And if that doesn’t work, I’ll get me one of those trophy wives I’ve heard so much about.

Ted brings some interesting statistics to the table…

From the 2006 Hollywood Writers Report, commissioned by the WGAw…

the over-40 share of television staffing remained largely unchanged between the 2004-5 and 2005-6 TV season (45.5 percent versus 46 percent)

So…there’s a lawsuit alleging that writers over 40 are being discriminated against…and they hold nearly half of the jobs in television? Huh???

For those interesting in wading through stats regarding the employment of writers broken down by age, gender and race, here’s a link to the report.

http://www.wga.org/uploadedFiles/newsandevents/press_release/2006HWRpre.pdf

Here’s another stat from that one:

Older writers are more than twice as likely as younger writers to be showrunners.

Damn ageism! They’re giving our showrunning jobs to those young little…oh. Wait.

1. And the only real quibble I have is with some of your argument - the alleged absence of old farts in screenwriting (And when I look around me, all I see are cats my age and older, but that’s purely anecdotal) is NOT the same as the absence of old farts at McDonald’s.

Working at McDonald’s isn’t a career one works towards. It’s reasonably axiomatic that if you’re over 30 and working at McDonald’s you’ve failed at something. If you’re over 30 and working as a screenwriter, it means you’re doing something RIGHT.

Re: WGA report…

Is that true? 46% in TV over 40 and there’s a lawsuit?

Anyone involved have an answer for that?

[QUOTE]In the case of writing, it’s true that the large bulk of writing is done by people between the ages of 25 and 50. After 50, the numbers start to dwindle. After 60, they really start to shrink, and once you get into the 70’s and 80’s, you’re talking about a very select (and hardy) group.[/QUOTE] Isn’t this true of most professions? My father was a surgeon and retired (later than some) at 60. My judge Aunt retired at 55. My lawyer grandfather worked until about 80 because he never saved money, but people hired him out of pity to do easy stuff, and he wasn’t paid well. Just because us writers WANT to work forever doesn’t mean it should be required by law. The expression Hollywood is a young man’s game isn’t just metaphorical—no one hires models later than their 30s (and that’s pushing it) and you don’t see pro athletes suing that their contract wasn’t renewed when they hit 40. There are certain professions that everyone knows are different. It’s the nature of the game we all voluntarily got into. It’s a sucky fact, but a fact nonetheless. Everyone in Hollywood who is subject to the subjective hiring process here goes through this. Talk to some talented actors one of these days and ask them why they didn’t get their last few auditions—I’ll bet their height, weight, age, shape of their nose, or something equally asinine certainly played a part.

The WGA released a similar report in 2005 (here’s the link http://www.wga.org/uploadedFiles/whoweare/HWR_Exec.pdf). Here’s what it says:

Since the last WGAw report [1998], older writers have more than held their ground in terms of overall industry employment — from 50 percent of all writers in 1998 to 51.8 percent in 2004. Indeed, writers aged 51-60 enjoyed a 6-percentage-point jump in their share of employment after 1996 (from 12.4 percent to 18.4 percent), the largest of any age groups.

-

Case dismissed.

Let’s talk about how to get those smelly old geezers off our streets…

Ryan—

Dammit, that’s brilliant. Congratulations on your impending re-relevance.

At the very least, you’ve ensured a steady supply of people who will be able to tell you, to several decimal places, exactly how not cool you are anymore….

And you’re right—in an age of Viagra, no-fault divorce, and surrogate motherhood, there’s no excuse for anyone not to keep landing work on Nickelodeon and the CW into their 70s and beyond…..

And more, this time from the 2005 Hollywood Writers Report, also prepared by the WGA:

Over the long term, over-40 television writers increased their share of industry employment by more than 7 percentage points, from 49.4 percent in 1982 to 56.5 percent in 2003. By contrast, the share of 40-and-under television writers fell by the same amount, from 50.6 percent in 1982 to 43.5 percent in 2003. But most of the employment gains enjoyed by the over-40 writers occurred between 1989 and 1996 (5.4 percentage points). Since 1996, the over-40 and under-40 shares of television employment have remained largely unchanged.

When more discreet age categories are considered (i.e., under 31, 31 to 40, 41 to 50, 51 to 60, 61 to 70, 71 to 80, and over 81), it is clear that most of the over-40 gains can be attributed to gains in the 41-to-50 age category. This category of television writers registered a 12.4 percentage point increase over the 22-year period, from 22.8 percent of all television writers in 1982 to 35.2 percent in 2003.

While the 31-40 age category constituted by far the largest share of television writers among the age groups in 1982 (38.4 percent), by 2003 this group’s share was comparable to the share claimed by writers in the 41-50 category (36.3 percent and 35.2 percent, respectively).>/blockquote>

Meanwhile, the under-31 share of television employment declined by nearly 5 percentage points over the period, from 12.1 percent in 1982 to 7.2 percent in 2003. It should also be noted that only writers in the 51-60 age category enjoyed a significant jump in their share of television employment after 1996 (6 percentage points), suggesting that older writers are continuing to hold their own on the television employment front.

I’m not going to bother with the link this time, ‘cause somethings screwing ‘em up.

-

Maybe my own proximity to aged mo-fo status has me opposing your premise — but if we follow your logic of skills suddenly diminishing with age there would be no airline pilots over 40, no heart surgeons, no nobel prize winners over that line.

It’s also unfortunate that you use baseball players for so many of your examples. The hard truth about baseball is that most guys who play see their stats go South in their 20’s, merely as a result of other teams beginning to read what they’re going to do in a particular situation and countering those predictable moves.

Maybe Hollywood doesn’t want writers over 40 because they’ve seen what we can do and suspect we’re are more willing to fall back on what worked in the past instead of what might excite a new audience.

Personally, I always figured Hollywood didn’t like writers over 40 because they don’t fall for as much of the BS.

I remember seeing a list of the names initiating this civil grey-haired suit once.

One name I unfortunately knew and had a horrendous experience(s) with him. And at the time, I thought he should know better because of his grey hair.

I saw that name on the list and thought, “That makes sense.”

The focus, seems to me, should be about producing more/new material or re-inventing ones self if nothing is bearing fruit.

This is just my opinion, but in many (not all) but many cases, I feel that lawsuits are for losers.

This suit has nothing to do with age. Good spin, though.

Mark

I’m a 58 year old screenwriter ‘wanabee’ and there was a time I feared, dreaded, even expected ageism to be the way of life in Hollywierd. No more.

When I write a spec, I don’t put my age on the title sheet. Nor my birthdate. When a producer, agent, or manager reads said script they only know one thing—is the script any good. Has the author told a great story, and most importantly—can I sell this?

As for relevancy? I use the great equalizer—research! If I wanted to write a movie aimed at the twenty-something crowd I would ask my children what’s relevant. I would interview young whiper-snappers and get their input. I would scour the internet for slang, hip songs, etc. Then I would write, write, write. If I’ve done my job well, any one reading my screenplay would BELIEVE I was a ‘young person’.

Finally, age never stops me from learning something new everyday, trying new things, and wanting to have a career as a screenwriter.

Regards, One of those smelly old geezers on the street

Really interesting post. I agree with everything you said…and then I stop and ask myself this question:

I’m showrunning my new show. We all know how hard it is to get a show on the air, and here I’m the exec producer and creator and everything rides on whether I deliver episodes that get ratings. My multi-million dollar paycheque rides on it. My next jobs and my Emmy ride on it. And so I’m about to start hiring writers, and this is where I know I simply want the best writers I can get. Turning out interesting stories and characters is challenging! I want someone who delivers. Someone creative and original. Yes, they need to have energy and commitment—and in theory those attributes can decline with age, but that’s certainly not always the case. I suppose, my own age bracket might come into it too, as I might prefer to be around like-minded people for those long days and nights cranking out a show. But in the end I MUST hire the 50-year old writer who’s lsat over the 25-year old writer who’s not quite as good. Like I said, my show is the only thing that matters at this point.

Last point: while I agree that all of Craig’s theories might contribute to the issue of why older writers’ careers fizzle out, I think that the case of directors shows a flaw in the logic. As Craig states, directors are often hired well into their 50s and 60s. And having done both writing and directing myself, I don’t for a second believe that directing requires any less “stamina.” A director must have her “finger on the pulse of the youth of America” just as much as any good screenwriter. Directing is a demanding, exhausting job, requiring tremendous mental acuity and all the things that Craig lists as necessary attributes for television writers (humility, drive, energy, ambition, etc.). Which brings me full circle to something I’ve come to firmly believe: it’s easier to recognize talent in a moving image than it is to recognize talent on the printed page.

It’s hard to know who can write. Networks don’t always get it. Producers don’t always get it. Fine writing can be elusive. And subjective. Ephemeral even? We know it really works AFTER it’s been shot and directed. Quel surpise. Assessing writing demands more of the “audience” (i.e, the reader) in terms of ability to imagine. It demands that the reader have enough creativity to recognize the potential. But execs and producers probably aren’t necessarly THAT creative…or else they’d be writers and directors too.

But you’re the network or the guy holding the bag of money and you still have to decide who gets hired and it’s way easier to hire based on the illusion of a great writer (the right look, the “image,” one which is highly cultivated in Hollywood and does include looking like a teenager, sent to you gift-wrapped straight from CAA). The 50-year old writer doesn’t fit the image we’ve created. And reading his latest spec feature…well it has a lot of pages in it and you don’t have a lot of time. But you’ll watch that director’s reel and your eyes pop out of your head because it looks so cool—that 50-year old director has IT.

Helen

“A director must have her “finger on the pulse of the youth of America” just as much as any good screenwriter. “

Um….. respetfully, no.

To write a scene in which two twenty-somethings hook up on MySpace over their mutual love of TV On The Radio, a writer must know that twenty-somethings actually DO hook up on MySpace over their mutual love of TV On The Radio. To direct that scene, all my grandfather needs to know is that it’s in the script.

Helen:

Unfortunately, Josh has a point. Director’s really don’t need to stay relevant. We just need to work with a good crew that is. Writer’s don’t have a crew.

Just a computer.

And porn to have masturbation breaks.

I just signed up with a big ole movie star to write, direct, and produce television and I know a lot has to do with the fact that I’m under 30 (okay, just barely, I’m 29). I’m confident in my skills and proud of what I can do but I’m aware of the fact that my youth played a large part in the deal. It may sound shitty but I’m pretty sure that a 55 year old wouldn’t have come up with the show ideas that I did.

On a side note, if you guys haven’t read Ian Gurvitz’s book yet—you don’t deserve to live. Hello Lied The Agent is on par with Adventures in the Screen Trade for its voice, humor, originality, and information. Great, great book.

Unfortunately, Josh has a point.

Ooo, Kevin, that hadda sting a bit, didn’t it - LOL!

But I’d like to second Kev’s endorsement of Ian’s book … and also mention he’s a great guy, to boot.

It’s all about staying plugged in. Slang changes every fifteen minutes and the older you get, the further away you move from the neighborhoods where singles live, the less likely you are to relate. There’s an easy solution.

Sit in a high school classroom for a few days. Substitute teach. Hell, if anybody wants to sit in my class in South Central for a week or so to learn how kids these day interact I’d be more than happy to have you. And protect you.

It’s just like any other subject you’d have to research. Maybe older people don’t feel like they should because they used to be there.

Isn’t it illegal for these folks to go trolling about in WGA members’ medical records? HIPAA privacy laws would seem to forbid such a thing.

http://www.healthprivacy.org/info-urlnocat2303/info-urlnocatshow.htm?docid=173435

The proposed discovery requests include not just demographics but also access to health records, details about financial deals - they’re incredibly intrusive.

Another problem is that many WGA members seem to be discarding the objection letters unread. If WGA members can’t be bothered to oject to the proposed intrusions, the judge may grant the request for them.

Kevin: Thanks for the flattering book recommendation. Very kind.

As far as the whole staffing thing, I’ve done it 3 times. Here’s what happens:

Your show gets picked up. You’re deluged with agent calls and calls from friends. Spec scripts begin showing up by the truckload. The agents all inform you that they represent the hottest young writing team in town and everyone wants them. You ask if they’ve ever worked on a show. The agents say “no.” So you ask what makes the team so hot. They say: ‘cause they wrote a great spec. You say send it over. The agents for your friends who consulted on the pilot call, saying “let’s make a deal.” You know how good they are. But they just had a kid so they only want to consult for a day or two. For 10 grand a week. You say you’ll think about it. Meanwhile, you get a budget from the studio. From that budget you need to hire upper level writer/producers first. People you trust can help you get through the week. And cover the room while you’re on stage, or vice versa. Or edit. Or give notes on an outline. By definition, these people will be experienced; i.e. older. You pick the 2 or 3 writers you want and try to make deals. One goes through. The others fall apart. You keep looking. And reading specs. Particularly the ones by the hottest young teams in town. Sometimes they’re great. Sometimes they blow. You meet with the hottest young hot team. Great meeting. You try to hire them. They take a job on a show that’s hotter than yours.

You have more meetings. Sometimes 5/6 a day. Everyone’s nice. And smart. Some people you know. Some you’ve heard of. Some you never met and sometimes until the meeting, you have no idea how old they are, or even what ethnicity. Sometimes what sex. I once had a meeting set up from a great spec and was expecting a guy. It was a woman. I offered her a job. She took a job on another show.

Meanwhile, pre-production is starting soon. You need to make deals. You start down the road with a few other people. Some work out. Some don’t. You keep meeting, reading, and dealing. Sometimes you respond to material, but the meeting is dull. Sometimes an agent convinces you to meet someone, even though the script was average, and they’re hilarious in the room. So you try to hire them. Eventually, you cobble together some version of a staff with people at various levels. Usually, the co-execs will be older, the story editors younger.

But through the entire process, age is usually irrelevant. You hire people you know. People you trust, either because you’ve worked with them or they’ve worked with other people you trust. Mostly that works out. Sometimes it doesn’t. And you hire people who make you laugh in the room. That usually works out great.

It’s an intense, complicated, mostly democratic process that, in the end, requires a few leaps of faith. You consider many factors including material, money, experience and personal recommendations. You just hire the best combination of people you can. Good story people. Good joke people. Young people. Older people…

Just no ugly people.

So refreshing to hear directors take a back seat to the writer’s contributions. I like it. But still don’t agree that directors have to be any more or less in tune with the 2000’s than writers. I’m not even saying writers have to be. Alice Munro continues to write stories that just get better and better, and she’s in her 70s. I don’t think she cares about MySpace, and her writing makes me cry.

I really don’t think that just because a writer wrote a great scene about people meeting on MySpace means it will direct itself. Michael Mann (64!!) is going to make it so damn hip and cool, he’d put every 22-year old MySpace lovin’ filmmaker to shame. Need I mention Scorsese (64)? The Departed seemed pretty cool to me. Did it feel like a grampa directed that?

Michael Mann (64!!) is going to make it so damn hip and cool, he’d put every 22-year old MySpace lovin’ filmmaker to shame. Need I mention Scorsese (64)? The Departed seemed pretty cool to me. Did it feel like a grampa directed that?

Do you have some evidence that Michael Mann and Martin Scorsese are just as much in tune with (to use your words) “the youth of America” as the average 25-year-old writer?

Just to clarify: you don’t have to be in tune with young people to write or direct a good movie, but that doesn’t mean that producers aren’t looking for content that will especially connect with a young demographic. They always have, and they always will.

This is FASCINATING. Have to say I come down on Craig’s side. I am a writer, I’m nearing 40, I’m a woman, I’m African-American (so arguably I could scream discrimination three times over), and I’m a laywer (the relevance of which will become clear in a moment). A quick tangent. The reason the lawsuit alleges discrimination against people over 40 is because that’s the age at which the legally protected category known as “age” kicks in. Chances are that the lawyers put in “over 40” with the idea that they would refine their argument when they actually go to trial (it’s classic lawyering — you cast your net broadly so that you don’t narrow yourself before youv’e had a chance to look at all the evidene, case law, etc). Now, here’s the problem with alleging discrimination in a business like ours. If you comparing two salesman, one 25 and one 55, and they both have the same sales numbers, then it’s easy to say that the 55 year old could be being passed over for the job in favor of the 25 year old because of his age (though even here there are subjective criteria, like whether he plays nicely with others). But when it comes to writers, it is impossible to do this kind of one-to-one comparison. By definition, every writer is unique. It’s impossible to say that two writers have the exact same set of skills, strenghts, insights, etc… And, therefore, it’s going to be extremely diffiult to prove that a given writer was passed over for a job because of their age (unless you’re the brilliant and very young-looking John August and they tell you to your face).

Older writers and younger writers are not comparable.

Older writers are generally more expensive. If they’re feature writers, they have to do someone to justify the added expense — like being truly original, consistently good; in other words, special in some way. Here’s an analogy. I don’t know how many people were in my law school class, but et’s say 100. Of those 100, 99 had jobs upon graduating (I went to a fancy school, so that was a no brainer). Most of those people are probably still employed in the law, but only some of them made partner at their law firm, and even fewer will end up on the Supreme Court. Being a $2M a project feature writer is the film equivalent of being on the Supreme Court. It’s not going to happen to most people, and that’s not discrimination.

If the older writer is a TV writer, he/she is more likely to be in a more senior position on the writing staff, and there are fewer of those. There may be 10 staff writers, or whatever the number is, but there aren’t 10 showrunners, or Co-Exeutive Produers or Supervisors Producers, or whatever. There’s less room at the top. A writer who doesn’t either get hired for a show-runner job (or succeed in getting his own show on the air) can’t just go back to the staff writer level anymore than someone who fails tenth grade can go back to kindergarden. Either you graduate to the next level or you don’t.

So here’s the deal. As you get older it gets harder. This isn’t discrimination. It’s life. No one’s entitled to anything in this business. This isn’t the post office. We have to earn our success in this business, again and again. If your writing assignments are drying up, write a new spec, and another. You will be rewarded for your work, not for your experience. And if you are penalized, it will be for your work and not for your age. Eric Roth is working. Has he been passed over for a project because they wanted someone younger? I doubt it, but who knows, maybe he has. But it doesn’t matter, because for everyone who would turn him down, there’s someone else who would hire him in a minute. Why? Because he’s got something special, as a writer and as an adult who is willing to take responsibility for his own life and career.

Here’s where my lawyer/writer analogy breaks down. The legal profession has lots of places where you can put-out to pasture if you don’t make partner at the law firm (you can get an in-house counsel job, a judgeship, go work for the U.S. attorney’s office, etc). In the film business, if you don’t make the cut, you have to make your own second act.

It’s a harsh reality, but few people in any field are good enough to reach the top. Of those, only some will succeed in staying there. I think that what passes for ageism in hollywood is the natural culling process. It’s not unlike the culling practice at a big Manhattan law firm. In my law school class, almost everyone who wanted a job as a 1st year associate at a prestigious law firm got one. But only some of those people went on to become partners. This is how life is.

Alice Munro continues to write stories that just get better and better, and she’s in her 70s. I don’t think she cares about MySpace, and her writing makes me cry”

Novelists don’t exactly operate within the same universe that screenwriters do.

Michael Mann (64!!) is going to make it so damn hip and cool, he’d put every 22-year old MySpace lovin’ filmmaker to shame. Need I mention Scorsese (64)? The Departed seemed pretty cool to me. Did it feel like a grampa directed that?

Here’s the thing. We directors have an entire crew to work with on a movie or television show. Writers don’t. Environment and Experience are gonna influence a writer’s work.

How could they not?

I admit I’m making generalizations but c’mon, are you gonna tell me that a 64 year old can relate to a 17 year old with a voice that rings true?

But just as much as that is true, an older more experienced director/writer is gonna run circles around me in their element. Can you imagine what it would be like if you read an epic movie written by Akiva Goldsman and then another one written by me? You’d be on the toilet using my script to wipe your ass with as you intently read his.

I can’t believe this hasn’t already been said, but I don’t see it mentioned anywhere above.

Dude, the kids are just too frickin’ young. Seriously.

I read/hear/discuss the work of 18-25 year olds all the time, and it would make Bud Schulberg bleed out of the eyeballs. These are writers who’ve never had their heart broken (or maybe just once, by someone special that they idealize beyond all reason.) They’ve never been chewed out by a superior they wanted desperately to please. They’ve never been denied their heart’s fondest hhope, never screwed up so royally they wished they were dead.

And as a result, their writing is a flat as cardboard and just as flavorful. Don’t even get me started on their total inability to take feedback like a rational adult.

Seriously, if you hire a writer under 30, you are taking a massive, massive gamble. Yes, a handful (I hope myself among them) manage to scrape together enough life experience to produce decent work, but not much more than that.

Harriet:

These are writers who’ve never had their heart broken (or maybe just once, by someone special that they idealize beyond all reason.) They’ve never been chewed out by a superior they wanted desperately to please. They’ve never been denied their heart’s fondest hhope, never screwed up so royally they wished they were dead.

Seriously, if you hire a writer under 30, you are taking a massive, massive gamble. Yes, a handful (I hope myself among them) manage to scrape together enough life experience to produce decent work, but not much more than that.

Wait, what?

Harriet, I’m not sure how or where you grew up but if you haven’t experienced those things by 25 years old, I think it’s time to move out of the cave.

By 24 I was already married and divorced. And I’m not exactly in the minority.

Hmm, I’m just not sure where you’d get that…

I was married at 18 and divorced before I turned 22.

And I’ve wished I was dead since I was about 8.

Harriet:

“I read/hear/discuss the work of 18-25 year olds all the time, and it would make Bud Schulberg bleed out of the eyeballs. These are writers who?ve never had their heart broken (or maybe just once, by someone special that they idealize beyond all reason.) They?ve never been chewed out by a superior they wanted desperately to please. They?ve never been denied their heart?s fondest hhope, never screwed up so royally they wished they were dead.”

I experienced every one of those to at least some extent prior to my 16th birthday. If you learn how to write a great story, and get accustomed to observing and learning from human behavior and everything around you, you can write about anything you want.

But if you’re simply not that good, you could experience those things a million times over and it might not make a bit of difference.

I believe you’re miss diagnosing the problems with the majority of those 18-25 year olds’ scripts.

Not that long ago, I was meeting with a manager at a very prominent management company. She was very solicitous in our first meeting, loved my writing, was eager to seal a deal. After talking to her higher ups, we had a very different follow-up meeting. She told me their company is only interested in one of two types. The “stars” — writers who walk through the door already earning respectable mid-six; and the kids fresh out of film school with a highly saleable spec. I was 43. I appreciated her honesty.

I don’t believe that younger writers are any more in touch than older writers. Youth can be shallow and solopsistic. I don’t believe older writers are necessarily better than younger writers; comfort can be salt peter to creativity. I believe the creative peaks are an individual thing. But that’s too sophisticated a view for a town like Hollywood, which cares more about perception than substance. The sad part is when writers accept that perception, or get tired beating their head against that particular wall, and walk away. Because then we all may be deprived of what might be the best work of that writer’s life, and because we had the opportunity to be a little wiser, and passed it by.

In the end, talent and ability (and being enjoyable to work with) wins out over almost any factor. I don’t think any across-the-board rule can really apply. I think of J.J. Abrams, who was touted at a wunderkind in ‘91 (when he was plain old Jeffrey Abrams). His first films out of the gate were boring duds. Add a few years to him and he turns into a prolific writer with his finger on some kind of pulse because he makes compelling television at least. (And television that immediately goes downhill fter he leaves the show.)

Age can sharpen your skills. It can add to your bag of tricks. If you stay on it and make the effort to constantly improve and challenge yourself, there’s no limit to what you can pull off creatively. But that has to be the goal. If it’s simply landing a cushy deal or selling your next script for another million more, then your ability will follow suit and either pretend to be “with it” or deliver the same old, same old. Stasis and calcification can happen at any age. I see no substantive difference between a writer in his 50s or 60s who’s cranking out the same kind of script they’ve been rehashing for the last twenty, thirty years and one in their early or mid-twenties who is convinced that they have the juice because they’re young. Both mindsets rest on a self-induced presumption and that, more than anything, is destructive to the creative process. Ability dissolves if you let it (barring any physical impediment that might come along due to age or bad behavior). But it can happen whether you’re 22 or 55. Keep challenging yourself, do the research, keep honing that gift and you’ll do all right.

As for staying current with slang, I like the example of Daniel Waters, who decided it was too hard to stay current and invented his own slang for HEATHERS. Maybe Waters’ career isn’t to be emulated entirely, but that impulse ended up creating dialogue that has planted that film securely in cult status. Soemtimes doing the opposite of what’s expected can have great results. Assuming you’re creative and have a good ear for a great line.

And, Kevin, I appreciate your point, but I can honestly say I’d be much more excited to read your next script- regardless of the subject- than anything by Goldsman. Just personal bias, maybe, but some writers are lame at any age.

BTW, Harriet, I did not attemp to change your name to “Miss Diagnosing” last night.

I agree with both, L.B. and Chris.

When I was about 21 I had a 60 year old supervisor that made some observations about me and the people I hung out with that still amaze me. He was a very talented man. That talent is the most important thing in this writing thing. I believe if that man was a fiction writer, he could “keep in touch” by frequently observing the little things (no pun intended) all around him here and there. Of course, unless they still hang around the youth, the less talented will suffer in this aspect as they get older. Most writers just aren’t that talented. Ultimatly, the scripts are what decide all this shit.

I have always thought about this in the context of aging rock bands. It is very rare that a rock band produces 3 great albums. In most cases there is the first great album (the breakthrough), then they rush out a 2nd album which is often great as well, and then they usually have run out of that SOMETHING that made them inspired and great. Some can stay longer (U2, Stones, Led Zep, The Who, Beatles, etc) but for the most part rock groups top out at 2 or 3 great albums and then its over. I think that rockers are looking for money, fame, and acceptance. Once they gain those things the inspiration is gone. In most cases even if they lose all those things they still can’t make it back (some exceptions exist e.g. aerosmith).

I’m not saying the same is true of screenwriters, but it’s something to think about.

I think I’m going to write a romcom set in a retirement home where all the residents are inexplicably in tune with the pulse of youth culture. I’ll call it “My Milkshake’s Gone Sour.”

Kevin & Ryan: I didn’t mean to offend you—I did say that there were exceptions to the rule. I pray I am an exception as well.

But if you think I’m kidding or exaggerating, think again. Maybe I’ve got the diagnosis wrong, but the symptoms are unmistakable. Lots of stories about alternate realities, with quasi- or super-human protagonists, and generally an absence of any real reason to care about the story you’re reading.

I have a theory, of course. A few years ago, I started seeing parents standing next to me in line at the registrar’s office. My own parents were thousands of miles away, having dropped me off at the airport several days earlier. Then I heard that parents were calling my professors and complaining about grades.

Now, magically, I’m finding that a slew of people my own age have no idea how to create believable characters. My suspicion is that they’ve been so protected from life, they can’t simulate a reasonable facsimile on the page.

sincerely,

Miss Diagnosis

Could it be perhaps that they enjoy film for the escapist elements and don’t necessarily have dreams of changing the world with high art? Not every writer needs to use film to mend his tortured soul, because not every writer has a tortured soul. Some just like going to the movies and have a sense for what they would want to see on the screen, and there’s certainly a place for that in the film industry.

Harriet:

You didn’t offend me, I just know that you’re way off. And I’m not just using myself as an example to predicate the exception to the rule. Most of our iconic directors and writers have created masterpieces before they were 30.

Look it up.

Steven Spielberg did Jaws before 30. George Lucas did American Graffiti before 30. James Cameron did The Terminator before 30. Spike Jonze did Being John Malkovich before 30. William Goldman published a book in his 20’s. Billy Wilder had like 25 screenplays produced before he was 30.

Ted Elliott wrote Aladdin when he was 30.

Just think of a writer or director that you really like. More than likely they started their career before 30.

Now, magically, I’m finding that a slew of people my own age have no idea how to create believable characters. My suspicion is that they’ve been so protected from life, they can’t simulate a reasonable facsimile on the page.”

Here’s where I think you’re confused. I think it’s just more likely that the people you’re interacting with are the 97% of writers that aren’t employed. Which is good. It’s supposed to be that way. This business is extremely difficult and it’s not for everyone. I’d be shocked if most of the people you encountered could tell a great story.

Now on the flip side, most of the working writers and directors started before they were 30. It’s been that way since the 1940’s.

As I get older, I don’t find my writing is less creative but I do find it’s emotionally deeper.

I’m an older newbie who has switched from fiction to screenplays after a long time-out from writing to raise kids, etc.

For the hell of it, I decided to adapt an unfinished novel I had put aside in my mid-20s.

I hadn’t read the thing for many years and what I found was my 20-something self was creating a story from a place of frustration with relationships. However, at the time I was still unaware of what causes the various issues between men and women.

Anyway, as I adapted the novel for screen I now had the life experience to put in layers which I couldn’t do at 25 because I was clueless.

My dialogue-writing skills were lightyears better, after years of observing people & learning how they reveal themselves through dialogue.

Although this script is more Indie fare — being a smaller story, more of an an edgy rom-com/drama — it’s been well received as a writing sample.

Add to that the 20-somethings who have read it have idenified with the characters. Of course I never tell anyone the basic storyline was written 20 years ago.

If age or generational factors made stories obsolete, no one would find value in Shakespeare. No one would find value in re-imagining Romeo & Juliet. Human issues are timeless.

With that said - a writer can be a shallow hack at any age.

“Kevin & Ryan: I didn’t mean to offend you—I did say that there were exceptions to the rule. I pray I am an exception as well.”

Didn’t offend me. For one thing, I’m closer to the old fogey person now (at age 35), and I didn’t really start writing until I was 30, so who knows if I could’ve done anything worth a damn prior to that.

Good post. The moth-like lawyers just love to sue Hollywood, because it’s one of the industries that likes to flaunt it’s wealth like a big porch-zapper. Old people gotta move aside some day!

There’s no way that any writer over 40 could have written the “My Humps” joke in “Blades of Glory”….

…not sure if that’s really a bad thing.

I think the generation gap is narrowing. The internet and our ability to embrace computers and electronics keep folks more plugged-in than they used to be. Perhaps it will be easier to remain fresh. Perhaps I’m a naive fool.

Thomas:

Here’s the good news. You’re not a fool.

But the generation gap isn’t narrowing. The generation gap will never narrow. Newer technology may seem like it’s bringing us closer together but just because a 15 year old and a 50 year old both have IPod’s doesn’t mean they’re listening to the same music, so to speak.

I can vividly remember being a teenager, it was only just a decade ago but I also realized this…I fucking hate teenagers.

Seriously.

When my son turns 13 I’m gonna lock him away in some dungeon, fit him with a big iron mask, and release him at 20. I’ll deal with the consequences later.

When I see a teenager behind the register at a department store, a little tear forms in my right eye. I’d rather see anything else than a teenager behind the register. I’d rather watch Mr. T rape my parents than a 16 year old who can’t find the button for shirt. And I know a lot of adults feel the same way.

Maybe not the rape part.

If you’re an older writer looking to stay relevant with “the youth,” I have an idea. Get a protege!

My screenwriting partner is more than twice my age, so when our 20-year-old protagonist has something to say, I do most of that. However, I’m learning tons about stuff about structure and making the stage descriptions as interesting as the dialogue and so on and so forth.

I read/hear/discuss the work of 18-25 year olds all the time, and it would make Bud Schulberg bleed out of the eyeballs. These are writers who’ve never had their heart broken (or maybe just once, by someone special that they idealize beyond all reason.) They’ve never been chewed out by a superior they wanted desperately to please. They’ve never been denied their heart’s fondest hhope, never screwed up so royally they wished they were dead.

Harriet, I’m not sure how or where you grew up but if you haven’t experienced those things by 25 years old, I think it’s time to move out of the cave. By 24 I was already married and divorced. And I’m not exactly in the minority

I was married at 18 and divorced before I turned 22. And I’ve wished I was dead since I was about 8.

Writing out the dysfunctions and weirdnesses of early experience in a way that connects to audiences is one of the peculiar traits of extraordinary writers. The ability to use the emotion every experience in one’s own life and make extrapolations based on characters’ age, sex, socioeconomic condition and somehow make it feel true. Empathy is a common trait of truly great writers; empathy on meth. These are the writers whose early work engages and later work devastates.

But I agree with Harriet, for the majority, the merely good, mediocre or (dear god) bad writer (so clearly this paragraph applies to no one on these pages) experience can be the making of them. It’s true that it’s possible to have the experiences she described at an early age. What is missing when writing from that perspective is perspective. What comes next?

Sure you can write about things and be a good writer in the 18-25, but let’s face it at that age we’re still distracted by any number of left over adolescent biological, parental and emotional issues which impede our ability to observe the world outside ourselves. We can write about our own angst, sure. But even the angst is so much more finely drawn once it gains a little historical perspective.

And yes, you can get divorced at a young age, but due respect to the pain involved at 20-25; divorce is an event which reaches operatic proportions after 10 or 15 years of mortgages and orthodontist bills, receding hairlines and bills and ballet lessons. The of a person who has asked ‘What comes next?’ from that perspective is writing from a far more interesting place.

But if they’re tryin’ to be writers for televsion and their writing talents make them better suited for being a greeter at Wal-Mart all the perspective in the world won’t make them ‘relevant’.

And Kev, I too hate teenagers; have ever since age 14.

Sheesh…and my post is what happens when you don’t think to edit until after hitting ‘post’. But hopefully you catch my drift.

And yes, you can get divorced at a young age, but due respect to the pain involved at 20-25; divorce is an event which reaches operatic proportions after 10 or 15 years of mortgages and orthodontist bills, receding hairlines and bills and ballet lessons. The of a person who has asked ‘What comes next?’ from that perspective is writing from a far more interesting place.”

Essentially you’re correct about the younger crowd not quite understanding what’s going on in the mind of a 50 year old but generally speaking, these aren’t the movies that studios flock to get made. Studios want to make movies about a weird little clown puppet that tortures people while Cary Elwes saws off his leg.

Then again, I’m getting the feeling that we’ve all kind of drifted away from Craig’s original point.

I think it had something to do with George Harrison getting old or something.

Why is it when a guy in his fifties does Jewish jokes it’s considered “old hat,” but when a writer for “Family Guy” does those them it’s considered “edgy?”

To me, it’s not that hard to stay in touch when every script is littered with pop culture references from the eighties that we all lived through.

By the way, anyone bought tickets for “Xanadu” on Broadway?

All throwing a bunch of pop culture drivel into a script will do is damage it’s library potential. No shelf-life = fewer TV sales and DVD/HD/HB/VOD-whatever-else-the-future-holds sales down the road. Or did I miss the BREAKIN II: ELECTRIC BOOGALOO “director’s cut” blu-ray release?

It all comes down to story. No one’s going to walk away from a great story because it doesn’t have enough “My Humps” jokes (FYI, already stale. Sorry Alanis). If you’re telling a story about a 17-year-old white trash mall idiot and you need to throw some of that stuff in, ask your fat niece (because cool kids haven’t listened to BEP since the first LP). Research it. I mean I don’t have to be a cop to write movies about cops, right? Because I’m not a cop. And those “impersonating an officer” charges were nothing but a big misunderstanding.

If you really feel the need to stay current, date someone half your age. By the way, Dan Waters is a personal hero.

I tried dating someone half my age when I turned thirty. Trust me, there are repercussions.

The idea that age alone would kill you as a writer because you’re no longer “naturally hip” is highly amusing to me — maybe screenwriters are different, but many writers were not the coolest person in the room when they were young. Their relative isolation and their feeling of detachment were precisely why they became writers.

Slang changes from school to school and group to group; good writing is never about pure transcription anyway.

I’m glad that Frank McCourt didn’t decide that there was no point in writing a memoir at 66.

Why didn’t he start earlier? He had to take a grinding day job and possibly he wasn’t emotionally or technically ready. Did starting to write seriously only after retiring as a N.Y.C. Public Schools teacher make him any less good? I don’t think so.

Is every older person who decides to write going to be a Frank McCourt? Of course not. But would you want to live in a world without Angela’s Ashes?

I’m now going to sing a song called Novelists and Screenwriters Are Not The Same.

And I’m going to respond with the refrain:

People have been writing poems, plays, and novels for hundreds of years, but they’ve only been writing scripts for about a hundred, and people are living longer, so why don’t we try to approach things with an open mind?

Anonymous:

Open mind?! It’s the movie business!:)

But seriously…it’s the movie business.

Kevin,

Is it possible for you to post without tooting your own fucking horn? Seriously. Every time I check the comments on this site you’re talking about all the big, big things you’re doing.

Kevin can say whatever the hell he wants as long as he makes at least one obscene Mr. T reference. It’s in the Rulebook.

I got yer back, yo.

Just to step back from the writing edge of things…

If a group of senior citizens filed a class action suit against the leading strip clubs of America for discrimination in employment we’d all roll over and laugh to high heavens.

Meanwhile, these strip clubs are all perfectly legal and legitimate (as far as stripping is concerned), so what separates these two cases as being plausible and laughable?

Not that I’m looking, but there are plenty of mature magazines behind those black flaps you keep wanting to peek behind. So there is some demand.

Would marginalizing this type of employment just be too silly? Because “silly“‘s really the only way to separate these cases. And I don’t think that’s a legal term.

In an accurate judicial system, both of those cases would fall under the same verdict… yet in an accurate society, only one of them would even make it to court.

Sounds pretty silly to me.

This post is full of so much total bullshit that it’s going to take a steamshovel to get through it.

As a writer well over the age of 40 who still works, I can tell you for a fact that none of your reasons why the guillotine falls on your 40th birthday is accurate. Sorry, you’re as fullof shit as any 30-nothing is (as I was back when I was a 30-nothing.)

The truth is, older writers get better as they get older. Being a good writer means being a good observer of life and - sorry! - no kid like you knows as much about life as anyone older than you. I’ll let you in on a secret: it’s at about 40 that you get the “key to the bathroom of life.” Things that used to puzzle you about how and why people do the things they do suddenly start to make sense, because you’ve been dealing with them long enough to finally have a fucking clue. (In other words, you finally have “character motivation” down cold!) I can write any teenage angst movie you want, because I’ve been a teenager and I know that angst, and I also know much better now how to express it, explain it and detail it. No Generation Y-bother semiliterate can do that about a guy facing a midlife crisis. They don’t have a clue.

The truth is that age discrimination does exist. I can tell you that when the smartest guy in the room isn’t just some motherfucking goddamned writer but is also old enough to bring up all their unresolved parent-child issues, when you’re dealing with the typical Hollywood Rocket Scientist, that’s going to be a problem, and it’s not going to end up with you working there. This is not just writers. I have a good friend, a really excellent 1st AD, a guy I would hire in a heartbeat to backstop me if anyone was ever crazy enough to let me direct something I’ve written, and he has retired and left the State because the little halfwits from the University of Spoiled Children are afraid he might show them up on the set by actually knowing enough to keep them from fucking the pooch unknowlingly, and their delicate little “aren’t you just wonderful my little Brandon-boy” egos can’t stand the thought. Never mind that he learned back when they were still in plastic pants that you don’t do it that way. All the kiddies are too afraid someone will see them for the talentless halfwits most of them are, and point that out. They live in abject fear of that (almost all creative people have this fear, most needlessly, but we all know which kind of pampered moron I am talking about here).

The truth is, when I get hired to write a script, they could shoot what I turn in as the “First Draft” because it’s actually the 25th draft (and it was written within 45 days, max), since I have been around long enough to know what a “good draft” is, unlike the kids who turn in 120 pages of beautiful toiletpaper-substitute requiring someone like me to come in and rewrite it in English, turn Caricatures into Characters, and remember that the word “movie” is a contraction of the word “moving picture,” the medium by which the story is told (most “screenwriters” have no clue how to do that, they think they’re writing fucking “literature” rather than blueprints).

I just did a rewrite of an adaptation of a Great American 19th Century Novel, in which it was perfectly obvious that DorkBoy, the original writer, had no clue about anything, since his “education” was limited to talking about TV shows he’d grown up on and movies the failure he had as a professor loved(that’s the truth, folks, “perfessers of movie-making” at your big-time expensive movie schools are FAILURES - if they had any talent, any skill, any real ability, do you think they would be wasting their fucking time on you in that classroom when they could be raking in the Big Buckaroos in Hollywierd???)

My writing mentor was the late Wendell Mayes. Go look him up in the IMDb and tell me he couldn’t write “after 40.” He died at age 78, six weeks after turning in the final draft of the last script he was paid to write. There’s none of us - not even you, Craig - who are going to have careers like his, and it hasn’t got squat to do with our lacking any of the things you listed.

As far as my health goes, I am in better health than I was when I came here. I stopped smoking 20 years ago, cut down on the booze, haven’t done any drugs, and I walk (admittedly a strange thing in L.A.) a good 3-4 miles a day. I can write for 8 hours at a clip, and my general “goal” in a day is 5-6 pages of completely new stuff, with the rework as necessary of the pages preceeding. I was a “write-fast” when I came here, and I still am. The difference being now that I am a “write-fast-right.” And that comes from experience.

Sorry, Craig my friend - this one’s a gutter ball.

Better luck on your next post.

Oh, and as regards “popular culture references,” one doesn’t even need to go teach in south-central. You want to know how MySpace works and what they do on it and what they say there? Put “www.myspace.com” in your browser and go spend some time there. It’s called research.

Slang is slang is slang. You can learn it.

C’mon, if you people aren’t smart enough to figure this out without some Auld Phart pointing it out to you, how the hell do you call yourselves writers????

TCinLA is not wrong.

Go back and read my post, and then read his. See if you can connect the dots.

Miss D

TCinLA,

I guess you won’t agree if I say there are probably dozens of screenwriters half your age out there way more talented than you’ll ever be?

Your comment was no less Bullshit than the ones motivating you to write it. Why does everything have to be either black or fucking white? Such superficial crap is the reason there’s such a lack of good storytelling, even with the amount of souls out there doing this.

Tragically, Craig, I think you are horribly, horribly unimformed and suffering from the proverbial 20/30 something “White Male Supremacist Attitude” that plagues Hollywood so pervasively over the last 20 years. Which is exactly what is wrong with this whole business of showbusiness.

I know the discrimination is “REAL”, especially for women. Why? Because I’ve had the doors slammed in my face too many times to count — and sometimes by women themselves. I’ve been told to write out female characters in my scripts because women aren’t marketable in film, etc. And the list goes on and on.

I know because I lived in LA for five years pounding the pavement after earning my MFA in screenwriting in 2001. I know because there were no female Oscar contenders this year. And I know because of the paltry statistics of the number of female writers and directors in film and television — readily available to men such as yourself. If you apprised yourself of these statistics and looked more closely, you will know that discrimination is alive and well in La La land. And that is WRONG, IMMORAL AND ILLEGAL!

The closest I’ve come to success is being selected as a 2006 Sundance Feature Film finalist contender for my first screenplay Red Fury. I didn’t win one of the 12 coveted spots, but at least I got READ! And that’s a feat in itself for a 54 yr. old Boomer Girl with three degrees in the arts these days!

And I know, Craig, because of all of the “B” rated films produced and marketed only to male adolescents these days, that leave out the other half of humanity — the adult world!

Ah, how I long for the films of the 30’s, 40s and the 50s and I’ll throw in the 60s as well. At least, they had something to say with “REAL FLESH AND BLOOD CHARACTERS” to say it, which is all but non existent in films today.

BILLY WILDER and ZOE AKINS where are you!

Linda Dallas, Texas